Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 14, 2017 23:08:03 GMT
[This is a repost of content I posted to Reddit.]
I wanted to start a tactics and strategy discussion thread about Steamroller 2017, and what it means for the motherland. (If you want to go on a rant about how PP is turning into GW because you don't want random game lengths, or hate the idea of circle vs. rectangle scenarios, please do so elsewhere. Please).
Obviously, without actually seeing the new packet, some of our commentary will be a bit speculative. Yes, this thread will get more useful once the draft packet is released and people get in games. But, based on the spoiler thread on the old PP site, and the material in the recent Primecast episode (which I listened to this week), we already know a bit. Hungerford is calling SR 2017 "an edition change".
Terrain guidelines. There will be 3 terrain deployment guidelines with specific measurements - cluster, quadrant and scatter. Design is intended to be impactful and meaningful, and avoid terrain getting shoved off to the side.
Variable Game Lengths. 5-7 Rounds. At the end of Round 5, roll a d6 and the game ends on a 5 or 6. Rinse and repeat after round 6. Round 7 is the last round of the game.
Control Points. Scoring 5 control points does not win the game. If the game does not end by assassination, then you found CPs at the end of the game (see 3). There is a Mercy Rule - if you go up by 6 or more CPs, then you win.
Timing. Death Clock is now the "Standard" convention in the new packet. Timed turns is now the variant.
Win Conditions. Assassination. Opponent clocks out. Mercy Rule. Having more CPs than your opponent at the end of the game. If CPs are tied, then look at army points destroyed.
Recon is the probably only scenario from Steamroller 2016.
Scoring points.
-Dominating does not exist.
-Flags can only be scored on by a caster. Casters can score on circles and rectangle zones.
-Circle zones are scored on by warrior models. For units, the entire surviving unit (could be just 1 model) needs to be within (not completely within). No rule regarding the minimum number of unit members needed.
-Rectangle zones can be scored on by casters, battle engines, jacks and beasts.
-Caster can score on multiple zones at the same time in some scenarios where zones are touching.
-Different scenarios have different numbers of zones and zone types. If you only brought jacks and there are two circle zones in the scenario, you're not winning on scenario.
-Models of the "wrong type" can contest but not score.
-Objectives still exist, but will be streamlined/simplified with a simple buff/power. They still contest zones and you still score a point for destroying one.
Additional Hungerford commentary from Primecast:
-New system reduces spam and "jamming" lists.
-Scenarios are more dynamic. More stuff like Recon where you might send specific arm
-Winning on scenario is harder, and assassination is more viable.
I'll offer some initial thoughts on the impact to me and my game...
*** Our Jack Casters Need Some Dudes - Harkevich and Karchev go Recruiting... ***
So, our jack casters are going to need to bring some infantry to score points if you want to win on scenario and not bank on assassination. And, the infantry they bring is going to need to help you score points and not just provide backfield support. I'm admittedly somewhat unqualified to talk about Harkevich since I don't play him much, but Karchev has been one of my tournament casters for a while now.
I have been bringing Karchev and 7 or 8 jacks plus some support (and during the themes glory days had a brief love affair with the Gun Carraige...seriously the back seat on that thing is enough for Karchev to get it on. Sweet ride). In theme, I bring Karchev with some artillery for ranged support and advance move. I've tried Karchev with one big unit of Winterguard, but post Errata 2 that's a pretty useless strategy since you only get 1 advance more for a unit that doesn't offer synergy. Looking at the America Team Championship Karchev lists, folks appear to be flirting with similar lists now as I am -- either go all in on jacks, or take 7-8 and stuff in a little winterguard support for the sac pawns and advance moves. One player put in a full unit of rifles, but even there filled the rest of the 20 point cup with artillery and not Joe or Rockets in order to get the advance moves.
If SR2017 looks like I think it will then I think any of the default play styles that are working now are going to be hamstrung pretty hard.
Karchev with 9 Jacks seems like a bad idea. Not being able to score at all on circle zones is going to force bad matchups and put pressure to pull off assassination.
Karchev in Theme is much less viable, but maybe OK depending on zone configuration. Like I said, IMO the favored configuration currently is to bring enough WG support to get 2-5 advance moves. Most of this support staff is really slow, and won't be able to contest zones which are far up the field. To be seen if it's a viable strategy to scoot-shuffle into the back of circle zones and let your jacks do the zone clearing / defending.
Karchev out of theme seems more viable. You can pretty easily fit Karchev and 7 jacks into a list and have 20-25 points of support. (And I needed an excuse to get Ruin back into my Karchev list).
No forum post would be complete without useless and hopeful speculation about Man O War. If the new MOW theme force offers a free solo for every 20 points of dudes, then Karchev + 7 Jacks + MOW Shocktrooper boat might rock. Depending on how the theme works, I could see 7 Jacks + 2 MOW Drakhun might be an excellent choice. Hell, even without a theme benefit, Drakhun might be an inspired choice! Why... ... You brought Karchev to have high ARM, hard hitting stuff, right? These guys bring what this list wants. ... Mobility. Karchev's list can suffer from a lack of speed, and I sometimes find myself out of position. This is a fixer. ... Impact attacks, Road to War, and you. Impact attacks are individual attacks. I find myself REALLY wanting to trigger RTW on turn 2, and Drakhun are going to bring you that flexibility to trigger 2-3 RTW each. ... You said you like Countercharge? If you like Battle Charged, then you like these guys.
This idea has me so excited I did a test fit. The following seems viable: Karchev, 3X Marauders, 2X Kodiaks, 1 Juggernaut, Ruin, 2X MOW Drakhun, Tinker.
(With reposition on the MOW, and a 6" move on the Tinker, you might even repair a Drakhun which would be hilarious).
When I first started with Karchev in MK3, Iiked Widowmakers and 2X Eliminators. Coincidentally, that's also 18 points and would fit in nicely with the above jack package.
As for Harkevich, I can offer more limited commentary. I like Krieg's list with 7 jacks, 2 bokurs and Orin. Without seeing the scenarios, we can't say for sure. I'd love to get your thoughts, Krieg, on how you think your lists works modified to fit double eliminator. From memory...I think that's:
Hark, 3X Kodiaks, Juggernaut, Marauder, Ruin, 2X Bokur, Orin, 2X Eliminators
That list looks fun to play, and the eliminators seem like quite legitimate scenario pieces. I know you play Hark into Wormwood, so you're going to have to worry about boosted sprays into our tricky chicks.
Butcher 3 Looks Like He Will Continue to be a Scenario Champ
Most of the popular configurations I see, and the stuff I like to play, seems like it will do really well with the new SR 2017 matchup. I'd been considering dropping B3 from my tournament pairing, but now need to reconsider that. I mean, really, doesn't he seem just TAILOR MADE for lots of different scenario elements?
He likes 3 - 5 jacks. Check. For many of us, one of them was already a Devastator. Check. You had snipers in your bag. They're warrior models, right? And they kill other warrior models! Check. You remembered to pack eliminators already, right? Double check. Casters can score in multiple zones in one turn? Guess what, I have 3 guys in my caster unit. Triple check. Oh, and you ran a bunch of stuff to tie up scenario elements? Well, I brought impending doom. Check and mate.
I mean, wow. Guys. Guys! (And gals...maybe Dr. Destruction or the Baroness will find this forum).
Rocket Spam Still Looks Legit
Admittedly, I've only played one game on this, so you can ignore this section (please, really, just skip it), but wow... If SR 2017 encourages opponents to bring more dudes, well, we have a GREAT answer to that.
Krieg opined elsewhere that V1 with 3 units of WG and 9 rockets plus jacks to taste may be one of our most competitive list configurations out there. I've read elsewhere that "you can't drop this into Menoth", but we have a 20" threat range on our guns. Lots, and lots of guns. If he's blocking line of sight, and you brought Destroyers, you can just bombard them. Recapping my one experience vs. Menoth (Kreoss, Jacks, Choir, Vlameguard, Vengers), this tech works. My opponent was nearly tabled by turn 3. Bring a Spriggan if you're worried about stealth or clouds. And, you still have at least 4 jacks that can charge 11" or 13" with Boundless Charge. If you can learn to manage quick activations, this tech looks totally legitimate and probably more useful in an SR 2017 meta.
FYI, my Vlad 1 list is:
Vlad 1, 2X Destroyers, Jugger, Spriggan, 2X min WGR, WGI + OS, 9 Rockets, Joe, Field Gun.
Our Combined Arms Caster Should be Just Fine
We have a number of casters that like combined arms. Koslov is my current poster child, but lot of our casters actually fit here. Although people call it spam, I'm actually putting my (shiny new) Vlad 1 list in this category, since it's got 4 units and 4 jacks. A few of our casters who fit in this box but might struggle against heavy ARM spam lists might be a little bit more viable with more infantry on the table.
Shocktroopers Were Already Good, and Maybe Got Better
Warrior only zones seem tailor made for Shocktroopers. Also, recall that Hungerford said that SR2017 will have some scenarios where zones are touching to allow casters to score in both zones. Well... you brought a unit of Shocktroopers to stand in front of your ballsy caster when he she is doing that, right? I think our Iron Flesh casters may have just gotten a bit of a tick up depending on how the scenarios play out.
I am Now MORE Excited About our MOW Theme. GIVE US THE THEME NOW!
Unless PP completely derps the MOW theme, I think we're going to like it in Steamroller 2017. I suspect we'll get one 4 or 5 point solo for every 20 points of dudes. Of course there will be some other theme benefit (fingers crossed for either advance move for MOW, or an extended deployment zone). We know the new solo will Empower jacks. Ooookay. I'm liking MOW spam (with free Kovnik solos) plus some solid jack support with a bunch of our casters in a new SR environment with more and different kinds of zones.
OK, that's it for now. I hope this post wasn't too rambling, and we'll have fun theory machining this topic, and then actually having a legit discussion once the packet comes out and we get some games in.
I wanted to start a tactics and strategy discussion thread about Steamroller 2017, and what it means for the motherland. (If you want to go on a rant about how PP is turning into GW because you don't want random game lengths, or hate the idea of circle vs. rectangle scenarios, please do so elsewhere. Please).
Obviously, without actually seeing the new packet, some of our commentary will be a bit speculative. Yes, this thread will get more useful once the draft packet is released and people get in games. But, based on the spoiler thread on the old PP site, and the material in the recent Primecast episode (which I listened to this week), we already know a bit. Hungerford is calling SR 2017 "an edition change".
Terrain guidelines. There will be 3 terrain deployment guidelines with specific measurements - cluster, quadrant and scatter. Design is intended to be impactful and meaningful, and avoid terrain getting shoved off to the side.
Variable Game Lengths. 5-7 Rounds. At the end of Round 5, roll a d6 and the game ends on a 5 or 6. Rinse and repeat after round 6. Round 7 is the last round of the game.
Control Points. Scoring 5 control points does not win the game. If the game does not end by assassination, then you found CPs at the end of the game (see 3). There is a Mercy Rule - if you go up by 6 or more CPs, then you win.
Timing. Death Clock is now the "Standard" convention in the new packet. Timed turns is now the variant.
Win Conditions. Assassination. Opponent clocks out. Mercy Rule. Having more CPs than your opponent at the end of the game. If CPs are tied, then look at army points destroyed.
Recon is the probably only scenario from Steamroller 2016.
Scoring points.
-Dominating does not exist.
-Flags can only be scored on by a caster. Casters can score on circles and rectangle zones.
-Circle zones are scored on by warrior models. For units, the entire surviving unit (could be just 1 model) needs to be within (not completely within). No rule regarding the minimum number of unit members needed.
-Rectangle zones can be scored on by casters, battle engines, jacks and beasts.
-Caster can score on multiple zones at the same time in some scenarios where zones are touching.
-Different scenarios have different numbers of zones and zone types. If you only brought jacks and there are two circle zones in the scenario, you're not winning on scenario.
-Models of the "wrong type" can contest but not score.
-Objectives still exist, but will be streamlined/simplified with a simple buff/power. They still contest zones and you still score a point for destroying one.
Additional Hungerford commentary from Primecast:
-New system reduces spam and "jamming" lists.
-Scenarios are more dynamic. More stuff like Recon where you might send specific arm
-Winning on scenario is harder, and assassination is more viable.
I'll offer some initial thoughts on the impact to me and my game...
*** Our Jack Casters Need Some Dudes - Harkevich and Karchev go Recruiting... ***
So, our jack casters are going to need to bring some infantry to score points if you want to win on scenario and not bank on assassination. And, the infantry they bring is going to need to help you score points and not just provide backfield support. I'm admittedly somewhat unqualified to talk about Harkevich since I don't play him much, but Karchev has been one of my tournament casters for a while now.
I have been bringing Karchev and 7 or 8 jacks plus some support (and during the themes glory days had a brief love affair with the Gun Carraige...seriously the back seat on that thing is enough for Karchev to get it on. Sweet ride). In theme, I bring Karchev with some artillery for ranged support and advance move. I've tried Karchev with one big unit of Winterguard, but post Errata 2 that's a pretty useless strategy since you only get 1 advance more for a unit that doesn't offer synergy. Looking at the America Team Championship Karchev lists, folks appear to be flirting with similar lists now as I am -- either go all in on jacks, or take 7-8 and stuff in a little winterguard support for the sac pawns and advance moves. One player put in a full unit of rifles, but even there filled the rest of the 20 point cup with artillery and not Joe or Rockets in order to get the advance moves.
If SR2017 looks like I think it will then I think any of the default play styles that are working now are going to be hamstrung pretty hard.
Karchev with 9 Jacks seems like a bad idea. Not being able to score at all on circle zones is going to force bad matchups and put pressure to pull off assassination.
Karchev in Theme is much less viable, but maybe OK depending on zone configuration. Like I said, IMO the favored configuration currently is to bring enough WG support to get 2-5 advance moves. Most of this support staff is really slow, and won't be able to contest zones which are far up the field. To be seen if it's a viable strategy to scoot-shuffle into the back of circle zones and let your jacks do the zone clearing / defending.
Karchev out of theme seems more viable. You can pretty easily fit Karchev and 7 jacks into a list and have 20-25 points of support. (And I needed an excuse to get Ruin back into my Karchev list).
No forum post would be complete without useless and hopeful speculation about Man O War. If the new MOW theme force offers a free solo for every 20 points of dudes, then Karchev + 7 Jacks + MOW Shocktrooper boat might rock. Depending on how the theme works, I could see 7 Jacks + 2 MOW Drakhun might be an excellent choice. Hell, even without a theme benefit, Drakhun might be an inspired choice! Why... ... You brought Karchev to have high ARM, hard hitting stuff, right? These guys bring what this list wants. ... Mobility. Karchev's list can suffer from a lack of speed, and I sometimes find myself out of position. This is a fixer. ... Impact attacks, Road to War, and you. Impact attacks are individual attacks. I find myself REALLY wanting to trigger RTW on turn 2, and Drakhun are going to bring you that flexibility to trigger 2-3 RTW each. ... You said you like Countercharge? If you like Battle Charged, then you like these guys.
This idea has me so excited I did a test fit. The following seems viable: Karchev, 3X Marauders, 2X Kodiaks, 1 Juggernaut, Ruin, 2X MOW Drakhun, Tinker.
(With reposition on the MOW, and a 6" move on the Tinker, you might even repair a Drakhun which would be hilarious).
When I first started with Karchev in MK3, Iiked Widowmakers and 2X Eliminators. Coincidentally, that's also 18 points and would fit in nicely with the above jack package.
As for Harkevich, I can offer more limited commentary. I like Krieg's list with 7 jacks, 2 bokurs and Orin. Without seeing the scenarios, we can't say for sure. I'd love to get your thoughts, Krieg, on how you think your lists works modified to fit double eliminator. From memory...I think that's:
Hark, 3X Kodiaks, Juggernaut, Marauder, Ruin, 2X Bokur, Orin, 2X Eliminators
That list looks fun to play, and the eliminators seem like quite legitimate scenario pieces. I know you play Hark into Wormwood, so you're going to have to worry about boosted sprays into our tricky chicks.
Butcher 3 Looks Like He Will Continue to be a Scenario Champ
Most of the popular configurations I see, and the stuff I like to play, seems like it will do really well with the new SR 2017 matchup. I'd been considering dropping B3 from my tournament pairing, but now need to reconsider that. I mean, really, doesn't he seem just TAILOR MADE for lots of different scenario elements?
He likes 3 - 5 jacks. Check. For many of us, one of them was already a Devastator. Check. You had snipers in your bag. They're warrior models, right? And they kill other warrior models! Check. You remembered to pack eliminators already, right? Double check. Casters can score in multiple zones in one turn? Guess what, I have 3 guys in my caster unit. Triple check. Oh, and you ran a bunch of stuff to tie up scenario elements? Well, I brought impending doom. Check and mate.
I mean, wow. Guys. Guys! (And gals...maybe Dr. Destruction or the Baroness will find this forum).
Rocket Spam Still Looks Legit
Admittedly, I've only played one game on this, so you can ignore this section (please, really, just skip it), but wow... If SR 2017 encourages opponents to bring more dudes, well, we have a GREAT answer to that.
Krieg opined elsewhere that V1 with 3 units of WG and 9 rockets plus jacks to taste may be one of our most competitive list configurations out there. I've read elsewhere that "you can't drop this into Menoth", but we have a 20" threat range on our guns. Lots, and lots of guns. If he's blocking line of sight, and you brought Destroyers, you can just bombard them. Recapping my one experience vs. Menoth (Kreoss, Jacks, Choir, Vlameguard, Vengers), this tech works. My opponent was nearly tabled by turn 3. Bring a Spriggan if you're worried about stealth or clouds. And, you still have at least 4 jacks that can charge 11" or 13" with Boundless Charge. If you can learn to manage quick activations, this tech looks totally legitimate and probably more useful in an SR 2017 meta.
FYI, my Vlad 1 list is:
Vlad 1, 2X Destroyers, Jugger, Spriggan, 2X min WGR, WGI + OS, 9 Rockets, Joe, Field Gun.
Our Combined Arms Caster Should be Just Fine
We have a number of casters that like combined arms. Koslov is my current poster child, but lot of our casters actually fit here. Although people call it spam, I'm actually putting my (shiny new) Vlad 1 list in this category, since it's got 4 units and 4 jacks. A few of our casters who fit in this box but might struggle against heavy ARM spam lists might be a little bit more viable with more infantry on the table.
Shocktroopers Were Already Good, and Maybe Got Better
Warrior only zones seem tailor made for Shocktroopers. Also, recall that Hungerford said that SR2017 will have some scenarios where zones are touching to allow casters to score in both zones. Well... you brought a unit of Shocktroopers to stand in front of your ballsy caster when he she is doing that, right? I think our Iron Flesh casters may have just gotten a bit of a tick up depending on how the scenarios play out.
I am Now MORE Excited About our MOW Theme. GIVE US THE THEME NOW!
Unless PP completely derps the MOW theme, I think we're going to like it in Steamroller 2017. I suspect we'll get one 4 or 5 point solo for every 20 points of dudes. Of course there will be some other theme benefit (fingers crossed for either advance move for MOW, or an extended deployment zone). We know the new solo will Empower jacks. Ooookay. I'm liking MOW spam (with free Kovnik solos) plus some solid jack support with a bunch of our casters in a new SR environment with more and different kinds of zones.
OK, that's it for now. I hope this post wasn't too rambling, and we'll have fun theory machining this topic, and then actually having a legit discussion once the packet comes out and we get some games in.