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Post by Aegis on Mar 21, 2017 21:45:32 GMT
I think that with his lack of points playing him out of theme is difficult. With Heavy metal you get up to 17 free points that are a blessing for him, expecially if you chose your jacks well balancing his focus starviness with the potential of his feat even without boosting. You can't ever get more than 13 free points with Caine3 in Heavy Metal, because at most you get a free solo for every 25 points of Warjacks, and a Caine list can bring at most 95 points worth of warjacks, meaning maximum 3 solos (or SK Command Attachment). That said, Heavy Metal is the way that I play him. He's one of the few warcasters that can accomplish his primary goals with an entirely battlegroup focused list. You are absolutely right. Damn minimal WJ points...
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 21, 2017 22:54:11 GMT
Juris , LOL, goddamit. A'ight, new rule, i don't post about this caster until i get more games under my belt and feel comfy posting off the cuff or without my cards in front of me. Good call, he does not ; has grievous rather than shadow fire in opposition to Ryan. This is utterly my fault: i have a handful of games with him but clearly not enough to be idly posting about rules and theory pontification from my phone in between meetings or during meeting breaks. Lesson learned! Also, Hey Juris, good to see ya.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 21, 2017 23:20:26 GMT
Juris , LOL, goddamit. A'ight, new rule, i don't post about this caster until i get more games under my belt and feel comfy posting off the cuff or without my cards in front of me. Good call, he does not ; has grievous rather than shadow fire in opposition to Ryan. This is utterly my fault: i have a handful of games with him but clearly not enough to be idly posting about rules and theory pontification from my phone in between meetings or during meeting breaks. Lesson learned! Also, Hey Juris, good to see ya. Thanks, glad there's still a forum going on. =) There's nothing wrong with posting off the cuff. I just pointed out the error for your benefit and anyone else who might read it and be mistaken. In any event, with Ace and Ryan, you have 3 Shadowfire shots, which I find is usually enough. So far, 8 of the 12 games which I've won with Caine3 thus far have been round 2 assassinations, and usually a single Shadow Fire shot from Ace is enough.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 22, 2017 9:56:05 GMT
I think Caine 3 desperately wants to be played in theme to make up for his low warjack points, the great thing about him though is that as he brings all of his own utility in Watts, Ryan and Ace, he is not as restricted in his shenanigans as other casters playing in theme. I do feel though that he wants the Trencher theme over all others, giving him a smoke wall while reloading his grenadiers is exactly what he needs, plus Trenchers have 2 attacks each on the charge, which is great when you are de-buffing enemy models. A pow 13 assault shot and a pow 13 charge attack each will get good work done. As long as the trencher theme allows the Squire we are all good
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 22, 2017 10:51:29 GMT
I think Caine 3 desperately wants to be played in theme to make up for his low warjack points, the great thing about him though is that as he brings all of his own utility in Watts, Ryan and Ace, he is not as restricted in his shenanigans as other casters playing in theme. I do feel though that he wants the Trencher theme over all others, giving him a smoke wall while reloading his grenadiers is exactly what he needs, plus Trenchers have 2 attacks each on the charge, which is great when you are de-buffing enemy models. A pow 13 assault shot and a pow 13 charge attack each will get good work done. As long as the trencher theme allows the Squire we are all good Attaching an extremely expensive gun to Caine 3 from ace seems like negative ev to me. The theme I think I will be most interested in with Caine 3 is gravediggers. Trenchers to keep him alive, access to fully rof 3 grenadiers (arguably one of his best jacks), all seems like good things.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 22, 2017 11:00:36 GMT
Juris , LOL, goddamit. A'ight, new rule, i don't post about this caster until i get more games under my belt and feel comfy posting off the cuff or without my cards in front of me. Good call, he does not ; has grievous rather than shadow fire in opposition to Ryan. This is utterly my fault: i have a handful of games with him but clearly not enough to be idly posting about rules and theory pontification from my phone in between meetings or during meeting breaks. Lesson learned! Also, Hey Juris, good to see ya. Thanks, glad there's still a forum going on. =) There's nothing wrong with posting off the cuff. I just pointed out the error for your benefit and anyone else who might read it and be mistaken. In any event, with Ace and Ryan, you have 3 Shadowfire shots, which I find is usually enough. So far, 8 of the 12 games which I've won with Caine3 thus far have been round 2 assassinations, and usually a single Shadow Fire shot from Ace is enough. No worries dude: trust me i appreciate it when people point this stuff out. Incorrect info helps no one! No harm no foul. It was more a joke because in two posts i was 2/2 for a slight, but significant error on this caster. The moral was "okay, i should reference this caster who i clearly don't know as by heart as i think i do". Not that anyone was engaging in this, but its a vagary of the internet that most of the time if you write 5 paragraphs of great stuff, and the last line has a typo, the rest is invalidated de facto. So corrections are important. Particularly with a finnicky caster most people agree is a royal pain in the ass at the list creation step. Back on topic: I a with Octavius on this one. I think Ace is just too damned expensive for what he brings. One turn of stealth is decent-ish. True sight, thunder bolt and trick shot are nice but not 12 point nice. He can't fight in melee, and his gun is inferior to a lot of other options along at least 1 or more vectors (less shots and less efficient per shot than a charger, not as high pow or potentially as many shots as a grenadier, if you are in the minority like me and like an avenger along occassionally, its less pow, less crowd control, and whether you value Ace's ancillary effect over the avengers is a toss up). Shadowfire is already native in a caine3 list and if you REALLY want more, there are several cheaper vectors for attaining it. Ditto on the magic gun: it's already native to Caine3 lists, and if we want more of it it's literally no hassle to get. Yes Ace's POW 12 can quickly become 14-17 in a caine3 list, but the question is, when compared to other ranged jacks at this price point or less, do those little extras really justify the points? For me, no. I mean... full disclosure, i was skeptical to begin with, tried it with two games ; one big, one small, and was not impressed in either game. Compare this to chargers / grenadiers / avenger / dynamo / cyclone, which i immediately saw the value in game 1, and each game onward began to reinforce that. Ace's problem is he's 1-2 points too expensive, in my opinion. He's a nice little package, but at 12 points its simply hard to justify (and outside of Caine builds he's functionally unplayable for his cost IMHO ... which is a bummer. THe same is not true of Thunderhead, Rowdy, Dynamo, or Brickhouse. I'm not sure why the design of Ace made him a virtual waste of points outside of Caine builds). I'm eagerly awaiting gravediggers to see if it grants free solos like so many others, and if so, does that mean Free Trench buster ? The buster may not be the greatest thing ever, but i'll take them if they are free for the shield guard to give Watts and Ryan (particularly ryan) a shot at living longer and being a general bullet sponge.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 22, 2017 11:06:16 GMT
Attaching an extremely expensive gun to Caine 3 from ace seems like negative ev to me. The theme I think I will be most interested in with Caine 3 is gravediggers. Trenchers to keep him alive, access to fully rof 3 grenadiers (arguably one of his best jacks), all seems like good things. If you are running Caine 3 in theme then I feel like ace is almost essential, he allows redundancy for Shadowfire, as Ryan is fairly squishy and the Trench Buster has lost girded, she can die fairly easily to errant blast damage.
Also he gives you a way of scalping out high value stealth solos, the only other option you have is drifting blasts or using Caine to cast Mage Sight, which he really wants to avoid if he can help it
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Post by jisidro on Mar 22, 2017 11:48:49 GMT
I dunno, I think he should have got something for his trouble. It was a hefty nerf. Necessary for sure, but a big blow. He's not the same as his mkii version because he lost a good bit of support, and his threat projection is really predictable now. I'm not saying he needs huge buff or anything. But making him a little less one dimensional would be nice.
I agree, every caster that gets the nerf bat should get some sort of candy, if only to open up his options a bit.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 22, 2017 12:42:53 GMT
Attaching an extremely expensive gun to Caine 3 from ace seems like negative ev to me. The theme I think I will be most interested in with Caine 3 is gravediggers. Trenchers to keep him alive, access to fully rof 3 grenadiers (arguably one of his best jacks), all seems like good things. If you are running Caine 3 in theme then I feel like ace is almost essential, he allows redundancy for Shadowfire, as Ryan is fairly squishy and the Trench Buster has lost girded, she can die fairly easily to errant blast damage.
Also he gives you a way of scalping out high value stealth solos, the only other option you have is drifting blasts or using Caine to cast Mage Sight, which he really wants to avoid if he can help it
So far I a haven't needed shadowfire or needed to kill high value stealth solos yet. It just hasn't been an issue. So far casters have either been completely immune to ranged assassination like Khador casters in theme or they just leverage multiple defensive options well. I can often go for a 40 to 50%er, but what's the point? I feel I should have better game elsewhere?
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Post by StreetPizza1 on Mar 27, 2017 16:13:34 GMT
I played Caine 2 an awful lot in Mk 2, and a fair bit at the start of Mk 3, I can understand people saying 'just play him like you did in Mk 2' however as others have pointed out the game has changed around him to the extent where that statement is not true anymore. Imho the things that have changed the most for Caine 2 have nothing to do with his cards. 1) no Squire and Reinholdt means 1 less pow 21 shot on feat turn 2) 3" off his max threat due to no charging your own stuff 3) Aiyana going down to magic 7 and becoming 50% more expensive 4) Eiryss 2 no longer being able to drop defensive upkeeps automatically 5) heavies becoming relatively cheaper and more numerous means that his feat is much less of an attrition swing 6) Trench Buster losing Girded All of the changes about have created a climate in which Caine 2 is just not that much of an attractive option anymore. If you want good army support you should look elsewhere, if you want a great ranged assassination then Caine 3 or Sloan can offer that as well, and arguable do it better. I'm confused here. Why can't you bring the squire or Reinholdt? I've seen this throughout the thread that he doesn't have the last shot and I don't get why.
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Post by bluebarren on Mar 27, 2017 16:26:38 GMT
The emphasis is on AND, meaning you can't take both. Which in mkii meant he could get like 10 shots instead of 9.
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Post by StreetPizza1 on Mar 27, 2017 19:03:11 GMT
Ah ha ... makes perfect sense. Thanks
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