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Post by Forsaken on Mar 14, 2017 14:12:13 GMT
So a podcast got me thinking about something. Caine is one of my favorite Cygnar warcasters, especially Caine2. He's had some changes/additions recently though. How do we feel about him now? Which version of him do we like best? Do we think mercenary Caine3 is appropriate? What changes to his army build are we thinking? Etc.
My thoughts: -The nerf to Caine2 really hurt his game. Which is to say assassination. -Caine3 is going to watch his caster unit die a lot. Def 14/arm 11 with 5 boxes makes deadmen walking. -Caine3 actually offers some support (gasp) that he wouldn't just rather have on himself. -Caine1 still holds up pretty well and I like his (fairly generic) spell list. Except the 4 focus thunderstrike which is just too costly on a 6 focus caster. -I think the theme lists will all be ok with him but don't really see much stand out there. -I don't know how well he's going to run merc lists, ironic considering how many mercs you often want in his Cygnar lists. I do like the fact he is partisan though. -Despite the fact the Caines benefit nicely from power up I don't feel they gain as much as many other casters because you still don't want a bunch of jacks.
There is more ideas but that's a good start. What about you?
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 14, 2017 17:55:02 GMT
I don't think Caine 2 really changed all that much. His primary threat vector still exists, he can still ping support staff without LOS, he just doesn't have his first incarnation's feat almost whenever he wants now.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 14, 2017 18:14:43 GMT
I dunno, I think he should have got something for his trouble. It was a hefty nerf. Necessary for sure, but a big blow.
He's not the same as his mkii version because he lost a good bit of support, and his threat projection is really predictable now.
I'm not saying he needs huge buff or anything. But making him a little less one dimensional would be nice.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 14, 2017 18:24:16 GMT
Perhaps that's the thing though: it may be different from my perspective (AKA, a player from a faction with a plethora of excessively fragile casters), but I always thought Caine 2 was SUPPOSED to be one dimensional. He is going to nuke your caster at range with his feat. This is what he is going for the entire game. If he EVER has range and LOS, it will work. That threat, that guarantee of death, is a huge part of his power budget.
As he stands in my opinion, Caine has to work his army cleverly to expose a hole to the enemy caster, pop his feat, and go for the kill. When he can deliver instant death to most casters, what exactly do you expect out of him at other times?
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Haight
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Post by Haight on Mar 15, 2017 11:45:59 GMT
Perhaps that's the thing though: it may be different from my perspective (AKA, a player from a faction with a plethora of excessively fragile casters), but I always thought Caine 2 was SUPPOSED to be one dimensional. He is going to nuke your caster at range with his feat. This is what he is going for the entire game. If he EVER has range and LOS, it will work. That threat, that guarantee of death, is a huge part of his power budget. As he stands in my opinion, Caine has to work his army cleverly to expose a hole to the enemy caster, pop his feat, and go for the kill. When he can deliver instant death to most casters, what exactly do you expect out of him at other times? On my phonend which is a pain to post from, but you nailed it with caine2. There is a reason mk1/early mk2 caine2 players are mostly fine with the power downshift. This is how the caster played in mk1. Use army to open hole, couple de Gras comes from Caine. It'soutlying that way again now, though there's a bit less oomph in the assassination, but also not quite as easy to stack defenses and a touch more utility. He is solidly middle tier cygnar. He's not easy to use anymore which is why people are down on him. They are comparing him to what he was in mk3s start when in fact that caine2 never should have left playtest. It's not that he is bad, he's just not faceroll stroke easy mode any longer, and by that I mean not that he was ripping up the competitive scene, but you did not have to think much when playing him. He had tools for most situations. Now he's harder to play and requires more thought and planning. I think this is why people knee jerked to "omg, he's trash". I dunno. My 2 cents. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 15, 2017 13:01:17 GMT
Yet again Height and I come from a time where Caine2 is basically what he has always been before, an assassin. If you wanted to kill an army, you used Caine1. None of the changes hurt Cane2's ability to destroy the enemy caster, he just can't do that while also destroying the enemy army at the same time.
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Post by bob on Mar 15, 2017 23:59:59 GMT
1) Caine2 is not that great at assassination, maybe give back his 10th shot (chain attack something ?) can we get back old magic bullet spell ? 2) Assassination is not that great in general (for now, wait for sr2017) 3) gate crasher range nerf, magic bullet removal, blur removal he's so 1 dimensional now, maybe he will shine again in sr2017 with 100% killbox scenario. Grievous wound should have been limited once per turn, black penny staying at will, magic bullet become a normal leap. this 1 focus per attack is not a good or fun option and i am quite convinced by crossing the other change in this errata that time or brain power was missing. I am speaking about tournament of course. In friendly game i don't usually bring a caster that go for the kill ASAP, it's not that fun
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 16, 2017 1:29:07 GMT
Caine 2 is bad now. His output is similar to Haley 3s with none of the excellent levels of support or resilience.
Pretty much the major nerf that pp messed up.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 16, 2017 8:13:43 GMT
I actually agree. They shouldn't have just nerfed him. It was fine reducing his infantry-slaughtering, but in compensation they should have returned back some of his assassination potential and survivability.
As an example, giving him back 8" gatecrash would have helped with both.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 16, 2017 12:21:05 GMT
His assassination potential is almost exactly the same as it used to be in previous editions.
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Post by bob on Mar 16, 2017 14:17:24 GMT
mk2 : pow : 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 with a possible +2 from kiss on harder target. (squire + ren) mk3 : pow : 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 without kiss.
missing a pow 21 shot really hurt.
At least if they give back the last shot and black penny option for free it could work , or swap hsense for solid ground
after only 2 games with Caine 3 it's obvious he got better attrition and assassination.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 16, 2017 14:52:14 GMT
But most casters can no longer tank up to armors 22+ (yes, there are a few small exceptions, but these are the casters caine has NEVER had a good time against anyway): it was demonstrated as soon as the focus change dropped that warcasters now have something legitimate to fear from a large number of attacks hitting at dice - 5 or better, which is where caine begins his rampage. Caine accomplishes both high volume AND high power.
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 17, 2017 14:01:44 GMT
mk2 : pow : 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 with a possible +2 from kiss on harder target. (squire + ren) mk3 : pow : 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 without kiss. missing a pow 21 shot really hurt. At least if they give back the last shot and black penny option for free it could work , or swap hsense for solid ground after only 2 games with Caine 3 it's obvious he got better attrition and assassination. He can still have kiss it just costs him an extra 4pts
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Post by Aegis on Mar 17, 2017 18:56:40 GMT
His assassination potential is almost exactly the same as it used to be in previous editions. No, it isn't at all. He lost his most powerful shot and lost potentially 6 iches of threat range (3 from reduced Gatecrasher, 3 for not being able to charge own models). That without even counting that now A&H cost so much and are so easy to disable (either killa Ayana or Murdoc) that are almost never worth it. He lost a lot from his old MK2 assassination threat. He is still a good assassin, but not as good as before. I was totally fine in reducing his efficiency against infantry, but a little compensation would have been fair.
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Haight
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Post by Haight on Mar 17, 2017 21:18:53 GMT
His assassination potential is almost exactly the same as it used to be in previous editions. No, it isn't at all. He lost his most powerful shot and lost potentially 6 iches of threat range (3 from reduced Gatecrasher, 3 for not being able to charge own models). That without even counting that now A&H cost so much and are so easy to disable (either killa Ayana or Murdoc) that are almost never worth it. He lost a lot from his old MK2 assassination threat. He is still a good assassin, but not as good as before. I was totally fine in reducing his efficiency against infantry, but a little compensation would have been fair. Agreed! As is he's mid tier in our stable. I wish they would have allowed him his chain attack slam back from mk1 and relegated the attack types to initials only, while giving feat back rfp. This would reduce the crazy attack type nonsense, retain his assassin threat, give some turn to turn utility in the chain attack and keep his feat turn very threatening to hordes. What they did was tune him into mediocrity. He doesn't suck, isn't terribad, he's just about average now.
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