spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 2, 2017 23:17:09 GMT
Storm Lances are a controversial topic right now. Some are of the opinion that they shouldn't get nerfed because the Swans have little else in terms of viable troops. Some are of the opinion that the nerf is inevitable because they can do everything.
The question is, what are you doing to prepare for a potential nerf? Are you playing other units in the Cygnar lineup? Are you painting that third Hunter? or are you playing the heck out of Storm Lances and loving it.
NB. Whether or not Lances get nerfed is immaterial, as is what nerf they should or should not get.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 3, 2017 2:13:25 GMT
I've never been one to overuse any one model/unit, even if they are the current hotness. I've had fun with them but I've continued to use sword/storm knights, blazers, Boomhowlers, and many of the other sub-optimals.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 3, 2017 18:13:50 GMT
I'm simply avoiding to buy the second unit until I see a nerf that makes me think that they'll not be nerfed anymore.
Right now it's evident that they are overperforming (maybe not by as much as some people think, but still overperforming), and the delay on PP decision to nerf them seems a deliberate tentative to sell as much of them as possible before cutting their leg.
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Post by albertairish on Mar 3, 2017 20:53:53 GMT
I've built other lists in War Room using the Heavy Metal theme. That's about it; business as usual until something actually happens.
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Post by wayniac on Mar 5, 2017 1:39:53 GMT
I am not a swan, but my viewpoint were I to betray the Motherland would be a compromise: One unit is fine, two units are pushing it. That way you are using the strong unit, but it doesn't become the crutch like running 2 units in every list ends up being.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 7, 2017 4:40:19 GMT
I still believe they are too effective of an all purpose unit. They need to either be ranged or melee, not both.
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Post by albertairish on Mar 7, 2017 6:08:20 GMT
I still believe they are too effective of an all purpose unit. They need to either be ranged or melee, not both. Then they'd have to get a hell of a lot better at whichever one they end up as. POW 15 on the charge is garbage if we're talking 5 attacks for 20 points. And RNG 8 Pow 12s ain't cutting it if it's 5 shots for 20 points.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Mar 7, 2017 6:49:06 GMT
My problem with Stormlances is that they allow for two list pairs like www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1358 to do well. Here we have a 17 model army and a 15 model army with a 12 model overlap. This is pretty reminiscent of Mark2 Trollbloods where lists were just different flavors of Warders because the unit did everything. PP's solution to that was to tone down their offensive power and give them additional defensive abilities to emphasize them as a defensive unit once the edition changed. Personally I'm hoping Lances are changed in a way where they lose the ability to do everything, but become better at what they're suppose to do post change. What my closest Cygnar friend is doing is testing lists without Stormlances and seeing how Cygnar's other options fare at filling the role Lances currently fill, that way if the nerf bat strikes them down he'll only have to test how the nerfed version of Lances fare into the meta, and build around any new weaknesses accordingly. I know his current project is making Caine1 Sons of the Tempest work since he loves the Gun Mage aesthetic, but he hasn't settled on anything concrete yet.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 7, 2017 13:33:42 GMT
I still believe they are too effective of an all purpose unit. They need to either be ranged or melee, not both. Then they'd have to get a hell of a lot better at whichever one they end up as. POW 15 on the charge is garbage if we're talking 5 attacks for 20 points. And RNG 8 Pow 12s ain't cutting it if it's 5 shots for 20 points. I disagree they would be garbage. Look at the other faction's melee cav. They would still be better than the majority of them with the leaps able to clear out swaths of infantry and the lances still hitting hard enough to take on heavy armor. I agree they would suck as a ranged unit though.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 7, 2017 14:43:48 GMT
Then they'd have to get a hell of a lot better at whichever one they end up as. POW 15 on the charge is garbage if we're talking 5 attacks for 20 points. And RNG 8 Pow 12s ain't cutting it if it's 5 shots for 20 points. I disagree they would be garbage. Look at the other faction's melee cav. They would still be better than the majority of them with the leaps able to clear out swaths of infantry and the lances still hitting hard enough to take on heavy armor. I agree they would suck as a ranged unit though. Well, if your solution is just "make them lose the ranged attack" and that's it, yes, they would be garbage. Let's take Khador's and Menoth's melee cav as example: Khador's one has +2 base ARM, +1 base POW, Relentless Charge, Steady and Crit Knockdown over rangedless Stormlances. Menoth's one has -1 base POW, but with Blessed, and +2 STR +2 ARM and Pathfinder if one of them is damaged. Both unit would be better than rangedless Stormlances, and they are already unit rarely used and generically not considered particulary strong. Making a unit worse than units already considered not very strong = making them garbage. So I partially agree with Albert, if they would become specialized, they would have to get much better at that speciality to be worth. I say partially since I don't think they should lose their generalist focus at all. Being a ranged/melee mix is part of their fluff and concept, so that is not going to change. I also think that it isn't impossible to make a generalist cav unit balanced, just take... MK2 Stormlances! In MK2, they were pretty good (American meta actually despised them, but in Europe we always used them), but noone complained about them, even with them having e-leap in both the melee and ranged attack. So, what would be a good and balanced nerf in my opinion? 1) DEF 12. The +1 DEF from MK3 was an un-necessary buff and it doesn't make sense with all other stormknights having DEF 12. 2) Rework Storm Division. Its just crazy to make them cost 15 points (20 - the free solo they bring). Make the bonus work only on small based stormknights and give something else in return (maybe a buff to Stormguards and in-faction Acosta). 3) Rise their cost to 13/21 or 14/22. The new theme forces showed a lot how points are actually a big balancing factor on everything. With those 3 changes I think Stormlances will be a lot more balanced without outright crippling them.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 7, 2017 15:15:54 GMT
I disagree they would be garbage. Look at the other faction's melee cav. They would still be better than the majority of them with the leaps able to clear out swaths of infantry and the lances still hitting hard enough to take on heavy armor. I agree they would suck as a ranged unit though. Well, if your solution is just "make them lose the ranged attack" and that's it, yes, they would be garbage. Let's take Khador's and Menoth's melee cav as example: Khador's one has +2 base ARM, +1 base POW, Relentless Charge, Steady and Crit Knockdown over rangedless Stormlances. Menoth's one has -1 base POW, but with Blessed, and +2 STR +2 ARM and Pathfinder if one of them is damaged. Both unit would be better than rangedless Stormlances, and they are already unit rarely used and generically not considered particulary strong. Making a unit worse than units already considered not very strong = making them garbage. Don't forget that Storm Lances have Brutal Charge, granting +2 POW for every charge, and they don't suffer from the Lance rule, like the examples that you've listed do.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 7, 2017 15:36:41 GMT
I already counted brutal charge in the comparison, Stormlances are base POW 13, while others are base POW 16 (Khador) and 14+2 (Menoth).
Sure, they don't have the lance rule, but Exemplars have a POW 9 weapon master secondary weapon, that is only 0,5 damage short of the base POW 13 of a Lance not charging (actually, +1,5 POW if the unit was damaged, a thing very very likely on a situation where you can't charge). POW 13 (15 on charge) is very poor if it was the only feature of a 5 man 20 points unit.
P.S.: All this without considering that we are comparing them to two generally underpowered units, for sure not the target I would aim for a balanced nerf (weak cavs should get better, not everything being made underpowered). That's why I say that, while I agree they need a fair nerf, a lot of often proposed nerfs are just crippling overnerfs.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 7, 2017 20:44:12 GMT
They also have eLeap on their melee attacks. I think without their ranged attack they are just fine as is. If you want a niche ability added or something, give them crit disruption.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 7, 2017 21:30:31 GMT
They also have eLeap on their melee attacks. I think without their ranged attack they are just fine as is. If you want a niche ability added or something, give them crit disruption. If I wanted melee e-leaps, I'll take Stormguards, that cost less points for double the models and the e-leap attacks... And everyone knows that noone takes Stormguards. Trust me, they would be awful, and anyway as said it is not going to happen since it would dramatically change the concept of the model that always was to be a melee/ranged hybrid. That said, discussing the potential nerfs between us goes only to a certain point. Dev's aren't going to see us here, so all we can do is to wait for them to put Stormlances on CID and express our feedbacks and suggestions about that there.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 8, 2017 0:32:29 GMT
True..lol
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