crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Sept 1, 2017 2:50:44 GMT
Hey, so recently I've been having issues finding a good pairing for Mercs... As such I've been playing some pretty weird Cygnar lists, but I miss mercs. So I've decided to do the un-advise thing and turn to the Internet for help. As such, maybe you guys can give me some ideas of what I could do (if anything) with what I have, and then maybe a purchase list for the future. So without further adue;
My Casters: Caine's Hellsingers Constance Blaize, Knight of the Prophet Durgen Madhammer Fiona the Black Magnus the Traitor Magnus the Warlord Drake MacBain Gorten Grundback Captain Bartolo Montador General Ossrum Captain Damiano Ashlyn D'Elyse
My Warjacks: Mule x1 (+1 Magnetized kit) Renegade x1 Rocinante x1 Wroughthammer Rockram x1 Mariner x1 Ghordson Basher x1 Buccaneer x2 Talon x2 Nomad x2 (+1 Magnetized kit) Grundback Blaster x2 Ghordson Avalancher x1 Ghordson Driller x1 Grundback Gunner x2 Mangler x1 Rover (1 Magnetized kit) Vanguard x1 Gallant x1 Ghordson Earthbreaker x1 Galleon x1
My Solos: Swamp Gobber River Raiders x1 Hutchuck, Ogrun Bounty Hunter x1 Eiryss, Mage hunter of Ios x1 Lanyssa x1 Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the seeker x1 Madelyn Corbeau, Ordic Courtesan x1 Savio Montero Acosta x1 Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator x1 Master Gunner Dougal Macnaile x1 Harlan Versh Illuminated One x1 Lord Rockbottom x1 Raluk Moorclaw, the Ironmonger x1 Ogrun Bokur x2 Thor x1 Stannis Broker x1 Sergeant Nicolas Vendrye x1 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor x1 Major Harrison Gibbs x1 Gorman Di Wolfe, Rogue Alchemist x1 Anastasia Di Bray x1 Gastone Crosse x1 Rorsh and Brine x1 Brun and Lug x1
My beasts (that I can currently use): Splatter Boar x1 Battle Boar x1
My Units: Ogrun Assault Corps x1 Hammerfall High Shield Gun Corps x1 Hammerfall HS Officer and Standard x1 Precursor Knights x1 Precursor Knights Officer and Standard x1 Croe's Cutthroats x1 Nyss Hunters (min) x1 Sam Machorne and the Devil Dogs x1 The Commodore Cannon and Crew x1 Lady Aiyana and Master Holt x1 Horgenhold Artillery Corps x1 Tactical Arcanist Corps x1 Horgenhold Forge Guard x2 Herne and Jonne x1 Steelhead Heavy Cavalry x1.5 (max unit plus one min unit) Steelhead Riflemen x1 Steelhead Halberdiers x2 Thorn Gun Mages x1
Other Useful things: Ace x1 Trenchers x1.5 Trencher Officer and Sniper x1 Stormblades x1 Stormblade officer and Standard x1 Stormblade Weapon Attachment x3 Gunmages x1 Gun Mage Officer x1
So, thoughts? Can I make a good two list pairing? and if so what would it be? Every time I design my own lists I seem to come up with lists that use things I either don't have, or that are to similiar in what they do to make an actually good two list pairing... As for future purchases I was thinking Cephalyx and maybe rounding out my dwarves more (as I love the non-human parts of Fantasy). Any help or insight would be AWESOME! And appreciated.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Sept 1, 2017 5:46:26 GMT
I'm not sure how many people would agree with me, but at a recent event I was at, I ran a double Kingmaker pairing, Damiano and Magnus1. I only ever fielded the Magnus list, as the matchups just weren't favourable to Damiano dude-spam, but only running Magnus1, I was in running for first place, so there's that.
My list was something along the lines of:
Mercenary Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Kingmaker's Army
(Magnus 1) Magnus the Traitor [+30] - Mangler [15] - Mule [15] - Nomad [11] - Renegade [10] - Renegade [10] - Rover [15] - Talon [7] Kell Bailoch [0(5)] Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (min) [11] Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11]
People often react strongly to the Boomies on the side of the table, one way or the other, but the main sticking point of this list was asking "How many jacks can you kill if I surround your caster with them via feat." The answer was often "not enough."
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Sept 1, 2017 5:52:57 GMT
Because I'm a specifity nancy:
What's your play environment like? Do you place value on fluff versus competitive? Do you have a preffered playstyle (i.e. Armour skew, infantry spam, fast stuff, solid attrition, assassination, weirdness)?
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Sept 1, 2017 5:55:14 GMT
I'm not sure how many people would agree with me, but at a recent event I was at, I ran a double Kingmaker pairing, Damiano and Magnus1. I only ever fielded the Magnus list, as the matchups just weren't favourable to Damiano dude-spam, but only running Magnus1, I was in running for first place, so there's that. My list was something along the lines of: Mercenary Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Kingmaker's Army (Magnus 1) Magnus the Traitor [+30] - Mangler [15] - Mule [15] - Nomad [11] - Renegade [10] - Renegade [10] - Rover [15] - Talon [7] Kell Bailoch [0(5)] Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (min) [11] Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11] People often react strongly to the Boomies on the side of the table, one way or the other, but the main sticking point of this list was asking "How many jacks can you kill if I surround your caster with them via feat." The answer was often "not enough." Not dissing you, however I find the notion you are putting forward odd. If I don't have a list that can in some way deal with four heavies, I've screwed up my pairing. Did anyone deliberately kill box their caster? use impassable terrain? Make their own jack wall?
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Post by Sarcastastic on Sept 1, 2017 11:30:14 GMT
I'm not sure how many people would agree with me, but at a recent event I was at, I ran a double Kingmaker pairing, Damiano and Magnus1. I only ever fielded the Magnus list, as the matchups just weren't favourable to Damiano dude-spam, but only running Magnus1, I was in running for first place, so there's that. My list was something along the lines of: Mercenary Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Kingmaker's Army (Magnus 1) Magnus the Traitor [+30] - Mangler [15] - Mule [15] - Nomad [11] - Renegade [10] - Renegade [10] - Rover [15] - Talon [7] Kell Bailoch [0(5)] Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (min) [11] Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11] People often react strongly to the Boomies on the side of the table, one way or the other, but the main sticking point of this list was asking "How many jacks can you kill if I surround your caster with them via feat." The answer was often "not enough." Not dissing you, however I find the notion you are putting forward odd. If I don't have a list that can in some way deal with four heavies, I've screwed up my pairing. Did anyone deliberately kill box their caster? use impassable terrain? Make their own jack wall? I think mostly what happened is no one was properly prepared for a Magnus1 feat in all honesty, so I doubt I'd pull it off again. And it wasn't just the heavies, I'd usually go all in and have every jack in the list that was alive have an angle for melee, considering I killed the Heretic with a Renegade. I think he overvalued getting corpses in that particular game and went for my Steelheads rather than jacks to start, leaving me an opening. Anyway, as I mentioned it's probably more from an underestimating Magnus1 angle than anything else, but I still usually have fun with the list.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Sept 1, 2017 14:06:41 GMT
Because I'm a specifity nancy: What's your play environment like? Do you place value on fluff versus competitive? Do you have a preffered playstyle (i.e. Armour skew, infantry spam, fast stuff, solid attrition, assassination, weirdness)? Nothing wrong with wanting more details, and heck you're the one doing me a favor by looking at all! So let me answer these the best I can... What's your play environment like? Well to be honest it's mostly my dad and I who play (and he plays legion). The only local gaming group runs nothing but mock steamrollers every game night (no prizes but you have to have two lists, we all set up the terrain according to newest CID rules, and your opponent is chosen at random for you (though you can't play the same opponent twice)). Both me and my father got tired of that, so we've just be playing each other lately, but I'd like more opponents. I figure if I can get two competitive lists I might actually show up more often, but because of the way they play it's hard to test "new" ideas. On a final note I'll also add that I know we have a Troll player, a Legion player, a Ret player, a Cryx player, and a Grymkin player. Though most of them have multiple armies, those were just the last ones I saw. Do you place value on fluff versus competitive? Well I will say I like dwarves! Always have, always will! They are my favorite fantasy race, and even better they've got a pretty neat look in Warmachine. I'm also a fan of "non-human" things in fluff, and so Cephalyx have also recently caught my eye, as they seem just a little more alien to me. One of my issues with most the "main" factions is actually that all their jacks look the same. Cygnar, Human mercs, Khador, and the Protectorate all have the same Jack feel to me, and it bums me out sometimes. That's also why I like having dwarves. A lot of their stuff feels different for some reason (maybe it's cause they're more block esc and less round?) but whatever it is I like it! I'm also a fan of the Pirate jacks, though as you can see I don't own any freebooters (been meaning to get some). All this being said, if I need to play non-dwarf I'll do it. Do you have a preferred playstyle? I seem to like guns, or at least having some way to fire back at an enemy should they be firing at me. I also like to have high accuracy attacks as I don't seem to have the best luck with the dice. Only other thing I can think of, though I've gotten used to Mercs not really having a caster like this (though I've done it with bart a few times with decent success), is I like to have a caster that can GET IN THERE! lol what I mean is the whole; Cast spells, move to safety, Upkeep spells, feat, repeat last three steps till game is done thing to be kinda... meh. I like it when a caster has to get dicey and get in there, or has the power to take a few pieces of the board himself. I used to love Durgen for this reason, as his cannon at least allowed him to fire some interesting shots into things and contribute more then just spells. It's also why I've been having fun with Caine 3 too. Hope those helped! And in regards to Sarcastic, would you recommend trying to get a second renegade, boomies, and Kell? How competitive are they normally outside of that list? Do lots of lists seem to be running them? and what was your second pairing like? How do you go about playing the list you provided? Any examples of a turn you can remember? What kinda armies do you see often?
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Post by Sarcastastic on Sept 1, 2017 14:24:15 GMT
My Damiano list was pretty much the same list, but trade the Renegades for a max unit of Trenchers and UA (I don't have the exact list on me at the moment but yeah). I'm not a very creative man it would seem, but Trenchers with Damiano's feat and Surefoot is a GREAT combo.
As for Magnus' performance, it was my first time playing at the store that held the event, so I wasn't sure what to expect, but I played into Skorne, Grymkin (just after release) and Cryx, surprisingly not running Ghost Fleet, which would have been a problem drop for me. Very often my gameplan with Magnus is to just be scary with his pieces like Renegades, that knockdown rocket is quite the mind game on its own. Most often it's launch a rocket at their caster if I can, feat, then run every jack after it's activation as close to their caster as I can, usually boxing them in. So either they kill all my jacks or have one fully loaded with their caster in its sights. This plan WILL NOT WORK EVERYTIME. However, I have had it go off far more than expected, even on people who know it's coming. Sometimes I feel like I'm Magnus1's only advocate, but he's the caster I've played the absolute most by a wide margin.
In regards to buying the Boomies or Kell, Kell is a very nice free solo because two magic weapon shots that can guarantee 3 damage per attack has saved me more than once. Need a system taken out, or an incorporeal solo removed? He's your man. He also caused my Grymkin opponent to spend more resources than they should have just to remove him to get a corpse on the side of the table he was on. The Boomies, not many merc players are going to recommend, as they can be kinda pricey for their performance, but having an ambusher who can prevent spellcasting within 8" is handy when needed, and your opponent HAS to shape their turn to remove him in that case. I only use him because the ambush benefit and because I had them as Mk2 layovers, otherwise you might be better served by other units. Also, I only got a second Renegade for that tournament because a friend loaned me his. I've liked having 2, but 1 can usually get you by.
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Sept 1, 2017 14:43:16 GMT
What's your play environment like? Well to be honest it's mostly my dad and I who play (and he plays legion). The only local gaming group runs nothing but mock steamrollers every game night (no prizes but you have to have two lists, we all set up the terrain according to newest CID rules, and your opponent is chosen at random for you (though you can't play the same opponent twice)). Both me and my father got tired of that, so we've just be playing each other lately, but I'd like more opponents. I figure if I can get two competitive lists I might actually show up more often, but because of the way they play it's hard to test "new" ideas. On a final note I'll also add that I know we have a Troll player, a Legion player, a Ret player, a Cryx player, and a Grymkin player. Though most of them have multiple armies, those were just the last ones I saw. Noice. Do they abide by the Cluster method? Specifically a line of sight blocking piece centrally, which tends to work well with the best Legion Beasts (Looking at you Angelius, don't pretend to be innocent). Do you place value on fluff versus competitive? Well I will say I like dwarves! Always have, always will! They are my favorite fantasy race, and even better they've got a pretty neat look in Warmachine. I'm also a fan of "non-human" things in fluff, and so Cephalyx have also recently caught my eye, as they seem just a little more alien to me. One of my issues with most the "main" factions is actually that all their jacks look the same. Cygnar, Human mercs, Khador, and the Protectorate all have the same Jack feel to me, and it bums me out sometimes. That's also why I like having dwarves. A lot of their stuff feels different for some reason (maybe it's cause they're more block esc and less round?) but whatever it is I like it! I'm also a fan of the Pirate jacks, though as you can see I don't own any freebooters (been meaning to get some). All this being said, if I need to play non-dwarf I'll do it. Against the listed opponents above, Rhulic can do excellently against all, with the sole sticking point being Cryx (I am of the view that Mercs have no good answer into Ghost Fleet at present, or at least a true playable matchup against an equally competent opponent has yet to be located). Not Ghost Fleet Cryx is quite playable in a pairing. I've played a lot of Cephalyx, it is important to note that they are the most limited purchases in the game (Two casters, one theme force, no where else to use Drudges or Monstrosities). The sad truth of Ceph is that out of their two casters, Thexus is definitely more powerful than Cyphon, though that fella does have his fans (All casters do, even when they are trash). You can check my vanity project for shoddy meanderings on Cephalyx games if you so wish, no value is promised: www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?s=350340a4181e20df39f2c8a50b400078&showtopic=185393Do you have a preferred playstyle? I seem to like guns, or at least having some way to fire back at an enemy should they be firing at me. I also like to have high accuracy attacks as I don't seem to have the best luck with the dice. Only other thing I can think of, though I've gotten used to Mercs not really having a caster like this (though I've done it with bart a few times with decent success), is I like to have a caster that can GET IN THERE! lol what I mean is the whole; Cast spells, move to safety, Upkeep spells, feat, repeat last three steps till game is done thing to be kinda... meh. I like it when a caster has to get dicey and get in there, or has the power to take a few pieces of the board himself. I used to love Durgen for this reason, as his cannon at least allowed him to fire some interesting shots into things and contribute more then just spells. It's also why I've been having fun with Caine 3 too. There's a long spiel somewhere about Dice superstitions, which I intellectually support and emotively fail at (My dice start skewing to hard, I grow suspicious and swap them out of the same handful of 6. Fella once had a rant about that being attempted dice fixing. Game attracts all sorts.). Hmm, trickier. In terms of pure power and competitive advantage, Ossrum is your man, but "get in there" is as far removed as he is to the chump with the periscope on the Siege Crawler. Durgen is...in an odd spot. I'm expecting he'll get some love when the Irregulars theme list releases at the end of this month, no one seems to have unlocked a good build for him. I think Gorten might be your speed, noting the enormous bias I have to him. I'll try to throw together some lists with your stuff and see what happens, no promises alas for I drift on an ocean of sugar that could drain out to the sun at any moment. Hope those helped! And in regards to Sarcastic, would you recommend trying to get a second renegade, boomies, and Kell? How competitive are they normally outside of that list? Do lots of lists seem to be running them? and what was your second pairing like? How do you go about playing the list you provided? Any examples of a turn you can remember? What kinda armies do you see often? *grumbles about Renegades not being good*
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Sept 1, 2017 14:59:34 GMT
So vis a vis Ossrum, aka probably the best Merc list at the moment and probably after anyway. The true Ossrum expert is Rob Shep, who is currently seduced by another game but has a bunch of material here: fivefingers.boards.net/thread/102/sheps-mercenary-panoceania-dojo-bathhouse?page=47Though warning, that thread was started in Mark 2, so you are better off going to the end and working back. Or pinging him for specific Ossruming. His current Ossrum testing Irregulars: Ossrum - 2 Drillers - 6 Gunners Siege Crawler 10 Forge Guard Eliminators Aiyanna and Holt Eiryss1 Taryn Kell One of the old reliable's in Hammerstrike: Ossrum Gunner Gunner Gunner Gunner Gunner Blaster Siege Crawler Siege Crawler 6 Forge Guard Herne and Jonne 10 Gun Corps Officer and Standard (free) Artillery Corps (free) Artillery Corps (free) In the constraints of your collection, I've thrown together: conflictchamber.com/#c6201b_-0mb_9o9492929393959h9f9f9e9ecZMercenary Army - 73 / 75 points [Theme] Hammer Strike (Ossrum 1) General Ossrum [+28] - Ghordson Basher [9] - Ghordson Driller [10] - Grundback Blaster [6] - Grundback Blaster [6] - Grundback Gunner [6] - Grundback Gunner [6] - Wroughthammer Rockram [14] Herne & Jonne [5] Horgenhold Artillery Corps [0(6)] Horgenhold Artillery Corps [0(6)] Horgenhold Forge Guard (max) [16] Horgenhold Forge Guard (max) [16] Tactical Arcanist Corps [7] Which isn't poor, but I'm not in love with it. Ossrum shuffles his upkeeps, with Artillerist and Snipe Herne and Jonne can pop out opposing advance deploy stuff. Ossrum then bravely cowers in the rear with Bullet Dodger on himself and cycling Hot Swap. Forge Guard have to do the serious armour cracking, strategically it's all about correct feat timing. I'd drop TAC for anything else that wasn't High Shields, dwarf wise I think you are best served getting Gunners, another Driller and a Siege Crawler.
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Sept 1, 2017 15:25:04 GMT
The Gorten Spiel: I've loved this little stubby munchkin for years. He's been my homie, we've suffered good times and bad. If my significant other knew about our relationship it'd place a serious strain about how I've emotionally allocated.....stuff.....didn't think this sentence through. Like I normally do. All the time. Gorten is (broken record time) hanging for irregulars. He likes stealth models for Solid Ground, he wants fast, independent stuff that doesn't suffer from his garbage focus stat and slow speed. Playing him is all about assassinating people that don't know him and holding your feat like a menacing hand grenade to win the attrition fest otherwise. The trouble is Irregular lists are uncertain, particularly on how good it will shake out for it's Jack Marshalls. Particularly the theme actively discourages Lesser Warlocks and Battle Engines(By them not counting for free models), both pieces Gorten otherwise quite likes. I would love to present my fine tuned Irregular Gorten list of death, alas WTC has my intention instead so that hasn't been on the cards. I would try the following with your collection if you are down for some touch and go experiences: conflictchamber.com/#c6201b_-0J8-dO929293937j3WfCfj9j705I73Mercenary Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Irregulars (Pre-release) !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Gorten 1) Gorten Grundback [+31] - Ghordson Earthbreaker [38] - Grundback Blaster [6] - Grundback Blaster [6] - Grundback Gunner [6] - Grundback Gunner [6] Anastasia di Bray [3] Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(7)] Hutchuck, Ogrun Bounty Hunter [0(6)] Savio Montero Acosta [0(6)] Thor Steinhammer [0(4)] Captain Sam MacHorne & the Devil Dogs (max) [18] - Talon [7] Croe's Cutthroats (max) [16] Kayazy Eliminators, Steelhead boat and Alexia would be my personal style, but we aren't here to talk about me. The theory here being that Gorten can be shielded by his Jacks and take over central/defensive zones, then get in position to bully the table by threatening his feat. Croes can either go super flanking, using repo 5 to be pains in the arse. Eiryss + Rhulic jacks super threaten assassination, plus you have a shout out to mark2 with Earthbreaker knockdown + Tune Up threat. Biggest thing skill wise is placement of the rock wall, good wall placement makes it the best upkeep spell in the game, bad placement makes it worthless. Best use is for it to stop landing zones on Gorten or your Earthbreaker. Sam and the Talon are me being cute, so I can't super vouch for them being the best. I do like the idea of knocking stuff down then feat pushing it way back for board position. Acosta flat out dies 90% of the time. And that's okay, he's there to threaten. Cause that 10% of the time he lives and puts Una2 on one box pre-her nerf and IT FEELS SO GOOD. Now, up-in-their-face. Typically I find what happens is about round 3 or 4 Gorten has feated and either won on assassination/scenario or it's attrition, where he hangs around putting a POW 16 gun shot into things or using Molten Metal to auto kill damaged Jacks (Molten Metal always doesn't 6 damage. Don't let your opponents think otherwise). Earthbreaker can also create rough terrain. Combine with wall and Anastasia picking side to punish non-pathfinder lists. For you current opponents: Legion - The long threat range can be an issue. A lot of the time I end up having to sacrifice a solid chunk of my list, then feat to buy time while I play catch up. Gorten's feat can do that. Grymkin - If the player is serious and managed to get his hands on Gremlin Swarms, I'd swap in Aiyanna and Holt somewhere for magic attacks. Cause those things suck. ALl about tracking his Arcana and not letting a Skin and Moans get to anything you love (Which, really is just your caster and Colossal). Trolls - Do not deal with -3 speed no charges no orders. Ret - If skilled Rahn player, we'll have to have a think. Rahn bad. Other Ret things manageable. Cryx - The bugbear, I'm THexus' them at the moment so will have to have a think.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Sept 3, 2017 6:05:21 GMT
u have like the whole faction and cant make two good lists??? probably need river raiders!!!!#
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Sept 3, 2017 7:34:34 GMT
u have like the whole faction and cant make two good lists??? probably need river raiders!!!!# Why is it full words are only CID worthy?
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Sept 3, 2017 21:10:21 GMT
u have like the whole faction and cant make two good lists??? probably need river raiders!!!!# I can build lists... just none that seem to pair well together. I just always feel like my lists struggle against the same things. Not sure if it's because I like a particular type of play and hence always end up with a list that plays that way (which would have similar if not the exact same weaknesses) or if maybe I'm just straight up not able to figure out how to answer different questions with mercs. I figured I'd ask for help and see what answers people came up with. Also, I have river raiders didn't read their card enough before I bought them, regret almost daily haha.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Sept 4, 2017 2:29:08 GMT
u have like the whole faction and cant make two good lists??? probably need river raiders!!!!# Why is it full words are only CID worthy? mostly here to troll
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Sept 4, 2017 4:59:17 GMT
Why is it full words are only CID worthy? mostly here to troll Carry on gods work!
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