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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 14:13:47 GMT
So you want a gun army that can ignore all defences against gun armies?
maybe it is intentional that gun lines struggle into anti-gunline tech of one sort or another, if they did not struggle then gun-lines would just beat everything
Patently false. Lets compare this to Gravediggers. Your basic Gun Mage in Sons will be Rat 7 Pow 10 range 10" with either +4" range, Thunderbolt or Crit Brutal, magical, pistoleer and Def 14 arm 11 Your basic Trencher in Grave will be Rat 7 pow 11 range 10" with assault and CRA and Def 13 Arm 13 with Tough, Rise, Dig In, Cloud Wall and Mat 7 Pow 11 charges. The Trencher is 10 points for 6, Gun mages are 11 points for 6. A gunline which ignores tech but remains at a low power is bad. It wouldn't matter if Gun Mages had rfp, Eyeless sight, true sight and hunter. they still can't hurt an enemy armoured piece. I don't want a gunline, but I am under no allusions that the current Sons of the Tempest list is fine because if your opponent brings stealth Infantry, you probably lose. Unpushable Models? You probably lose. Fast melee? You probably lose. Clouds? Lose. Generally lists in Cygnar don't double down on guns in case those things appear and they try to have a good melee section. Gravediggers honestly can't do ithat. I don't think SotT struggles with armour as much as you are making out, apart from a few exceptions not everything in an enemy army is going to be stealthy, or unpushable, also pistoleer gives SotT a good melee section, take Ragman, combine with Falks spray and your Black 13th alone have 4 x pow 14 +4d6, plus Ragman and Falk can target multiple models with their armour fixers, so what if they have fast infantry? you all have gunfighter.
I think you are getting too obsessed with the negatives and not fully appreciating how infuriating you can make a SotT list, so they may have unpushable heavies, Haley 1 can take a Lancer for Disruption now, with so many shadowfires and flares you can threaten assassinations with most lists, why not take a Stormwall with Caine 1? RNG 16 covering Fires should keep some of that fast stealthy infantry away, or take a Hurricane, with a Firefly and Falk those guns become pow 20! yes you will need to take warjacks to help do some of the heavy lifting, but so what? if that's what you have to do just do it! don't just moan about the fact that the Gun Mages pow 10s won't do much against Tiberion or Devastators, they are not meant to!
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 29, 2017 15:01:28 GMT
Comparing gun mages to the units of other themes shows exactly what issues we have.
Point cost per model of units without CA Gun Mages: 1.833 Trencher Infantry: 1.6 Trencher Commando: 1.5 Sword Knight: 1.3 Storm Blades: 1.667
Point cost per model of units with CA Gun Mages: 2.14 Trencher Infantry 1.75 Trencher Commando: 1.72 Sword Knights: 1.41 Storm Blades: 1.875
Big cost difference. I know what some of you are thinking, though. "But Stormsmith Dropout, Gun Mages are elite specialists. They have Snipe and Thunderbolt and Rat 7! They SHOULD be worth more than other units."
Wrong! Here's why: Trencher infantry have gun mages beat in terms of durablity, damage output, accuracy (they can CRA in any combination to get rat 8-16), and I will argue that they have more versatility as well. Gun mages threaten 20" with Snipe, and Trenchers 19" with Assault. But Trenchers have way better melee output (assault rat 6 pow 11 and mat 6 boosted pow 11), can cloudwall, and dig in.
Stormblades are more durable by a mile. They threaten 14" with Assault shots, shred heavies, and can tear into infantry too. Stormgunner makes them, potentially, infinitely accurate.
Sword Knights are dirt cheap, more survivable than gun mages, and have access to flank AND CMA for accuracy.
Gun mages are simoultaneously: -The most expensive base unit in a theme -The most fragile base unit in a theme -The unit with the lowest caster independant accuracy cieling -The unit with the lowest damage cieling -A unit that can only kill infantry
"B-but Stormsmith, they can push heavies out of zones and stuff..."
And that's all they've got. Is that worth the points? I don't really think so. And if I want to kill infantry, Gravediggers and Storm Division are WAY better options because they are good at killing infantry AND heavies, and they don't all die to low pow blast damage.
Look at all the abilities on the Trencher Infantry and Commandos cards compared to gun mages. Commandos have Stealth, Pathfinder, AOEs, accurate melee AND ranged attacks. They are 13/13 with tough, not 14/11. The Commado CA brings reposition and an awesome mini-feat, the gun mage CA brings Tactician and Swift Hunter.
"But the Gun Mage Captain has a really good drive for Jack Marshalling, right?"
Jack Marshalling is awful, don't pretend that you would run a marshalled jack in tourney. Bringing the CA and a jack only further inflates the cost of this unit. They force you to pay 15 points plus warjack cost to get a mediocre jack and an overpriced unit. The jack becomes mostly useless if a arm 11 CA dies, so that's nice. Unlike Junior who is 14/14 with focus for safety, running a jack, and upkeeping AS. Or Jakes or TWL who are crazy survivable and do far more for a jack than the gun mage CA.
"But what about Pistoleer?"
Pistoleer only helps gun mages kill infantry at close range, which every unit can do. That wasn't the problem.
The problem is that if Gun Mages are supposed to be expensive Specialists, then they need to be crazy amazing at something that other units can't touch. Instead they are expensive, frail, and crippled by specialties that are not special.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 15:14:55 GMT
Everyone warns against cross-faction comparisons, I would go further and advise against cross-theme caparisons, in the mind of PP themes are actual sub-factions now, so comparing models in them directly is no longer that helpful.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 29, 2017 15:18:19 GMT
Everyone warns against cross-faction comparisons, I would go further and advise against cross-theme caparisons, in the mind of PP themes are actual sub-factions now, so comparing models in them directly is no longer that helpful. What are gun mages supposed to do?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 15:24:47 GMT
Everyone warns against cross-faction comparisons, I would go further and advise against cross-theme caparisons, in the mind of PP themes are actual sub-factions now, so comparing models in them directly is no longer that helpful. What are gun mages supposed to do? Be an option if you want to play Sons of the Tempest. Yes there might be strictly better options, but that is always going to be an issue as factions become more and more bloated with models, not everything can be perfectly balanced without stepping on each others toes, that is why PP are breaking factions into themes or 'sub-factions' so these models that overlap are not directly competing.
edit, an example of this mindset from PP is from their Primecast about the Trencher releases, they basically said that yes trencher mechaniks were not as good as repairing stuff as regular ones, so why would you ever take them? because if you want repair in gravediggers they are your only option!
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Post by jisidro on Aug 29, 2017 15:33:38 GMT
... Wrong! Here's why: ... Where was this post when Cygnarians complained about their useless infantry? More OT: Falk looks relaly cool but not a powerhouse in any way... Especailly since cross theme themes are not a thing.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 29, 2017 15:37:53 GMT
What are gun mages supposed to do? Be an option if you want to play Sons of the Tempest. Yes there might be strictly better options, but that is always going to be an issue as factions become more and more bloated with models, not everything can be perfectly balanced without stepping on each others toes, that is why PP are breaking factions into themes or 'sub-factions' so these models that overlap are not directly competing.
edit, an example of this mindset from PP is from their Primecast about the Trencher releases, they basically said that yes trencher mechaniks were not as good as repairing stuff as regular ones, so why would you ever take them? because if you want repair in gravediggers they are your only option!
Sure, but SotT as a theme is not up to par with GD as a whole. What is SotT supposed to has as "its thing?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 16:24:44 GMT
Be an option if you want to play Sons of the Tempest. Yes there might be strictly better options, but that is always going to be an issue as factions become more and more bloated with models, not everything can be perfectly balanced without stepping on each others toes, that is why PP are breaking factions into themes or 'sub-factions' so these models that overlap are not directly competing.
edit, an example of this mindset from PP is from their Primecast about the Trencher releases, they basically said that yes trencher mechaniks were not as good as repairing stuff as regular ones, so why would you ever take them? because if you want repair in gravediggers they are your only option!
Sure, but SotT as a theme is not up to par with GD as a whole. What is SotT supposed to has as "its thing? probably a propensity for magical weapons and some control elements, plus it is the only theme we have currently that can bring a merc solo.
in comparing themes I agree that SotT does not quite stack up against gravediggers yet, but to remedy that I would
- allow inclusion of the Squire - let marshalled warjacks count towards free points - allow Thorn Gun Mages without them taking up the merc unit slot and make them friendly faction
edit, the only rules change for a unit I would like to see is give the Black 13th back a unique runeshot each, I loved the toolbox feel they had in Mk2 as it really stood them apart from regular gun mages
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Post by Aegis on Aug 29, 2017 18:16:16 GMT
I don't think SotT struggles with armour as much as you are making out, apart from a few exceptions not everything in an enemy army is going to be stealthy, or unpushable, also pistoleer gives SotT a good melee section, take Ragman, combine with Falks spray and your Black 13th alone have 4 x pow 14 +4d6, plus Ragman and Falk can target multiple models with their armour fixers, so what if they have fast infantry? you all have gunfighter.I think you are getting too obsessed with the negatives and not fully appreciating how infuriating you can make a SotT list, so they may have unpushable heavies, Haley 1 can take a Lancer for Disruption now, with so many shadowfires and flares you can threaten assassinations with most lists, why not take a Stormwall with Caine 1? RNG 16 covering Fires should keep some of that fast stealthy infantry away, or take a Hurricane, with a Firefly and Falk those guns become pow 20! yes you will need to take warjacks to help do some of the heavy lifting, but so what? if that's what you have to do just do it! don't just moan about the fact that the Gun Mages pow 10s won't do much against Tiberion or Devastators, they are not meant to! Haley could always include Thorn for arcnoding, so the addition of the Lancer isn't exactly critical. That said, if a theme forces me to take enormous quantities of "meh" models, that lose on stat comparison to other options, have tons of weaknesses and don't bring anything really important, I would generically say it's a bad theme. You may not want to make cross faction comparisons, but when I build my pair for a tournament, why should I reach for SoT for one of my lists? If I have more all-rounded options for the same "slot" (anti-infantry/ranged control), why should I pick a list that solves practically no problems (aside from magic weapons, but I can get enough magic weapons in other themes usually without much effort) and leaves a lot of weak spots open? That without counting that the theme fits only a very restricted list of casters, that doesn't include any of our best options. They could fix it giving huge bonuses to the theme (bad idea), but the best way to fix this is: 1) Allow jacks into the count to open for more casters and styles, and giving more space for things that can crack armor. 2) Giving buffs to the Arcane Tempest units, that are in general sub-par. If they do that, than maybe SoT will be able to have less weak spots and to bring something really usefull to the table, when comparing themes to decide the 2 to put in the pair.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 31, 2017 16:45:15 GMT
Newest changes: Gun Mage CA has entered the CID. They dropped tactician to give him a true sight mini feat.
Falk gained prowl
SotT has been edited to disallow free upkeeps on enemy gun mage models.
Glad that the CA is added. Giving him true sight mini feat is about all he needed. Now the base unit needs to be buffed, or made cheaper, to be worthwhile in the first place.
Falk gaining prowl is nice, but a lack of pathfinder makes it less awesome than it could be. If gun mages could make clouds, it and run-and-gun would be amazing.
They still need more help, but we are moving in the right direction, and there are other factions who need to be fixed just as much or more.
Honestly, I'd rather the CA get granted: Arcane Precision, and a mini-feat of Force Barrier.
Slap Duelist on the base unit, and maybe they'll be survivable enough.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 31, 2017 17:43:11 GMT
I agree that the changes are good. Now SoT is less hindered by stealth and cloudwalls, and Falk has more chance to survive to apply his debuff.
Anyway, I still think that the main problem remains. The list really needs to do more damage in some way or another, and the best option for me is to allow jacks for free points.
At the moment, you are forced to take 60 points of Gun Mages, that leaves you with only 15 points outside battlegroup.
Those points are likely going to mercenaries to bring things like ragman or A&H, so there isn't even space to marshal jacks to the gun mages like it is now...
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 31, 2017 18:58:28 GMT
The problem is that the Gun Mages are very fragile and expensive, and they still don't have the "utility" that they are supposed to have.
A whole army of Arm 11 or 13 is way too weak, and def 14 does not keep them alive.
I'm not even opposed to them being expensive glass cannons that don't kill high armor targets. But they have to be amazing at what they do.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 31, 2017 19:03:33 GMT
Their problem is that they are "Glass pistols" and not "Glass cannons".
Actually, the ATGM are fine now with the new change, imo, (maybe the main unit could cost 1 point less, but can work), the problem is that the list lacks "cannons". We have too few models able to really do damage.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Aug 31, 2017 19:37:01 GMT
I agree that the changes are good. Now SoT is less hindered by stealth and cloudwalls, and Falk has more chance to survive to apply his debuff. Anyway, I still think that the main problem remains. The list really needs to do more damage in some way or another, and the best option for me is to allow jacks for free points. At the moment, you are forced to take 60 points of Gun Mages, that leaves you with only 15 points outside battlegroup. Those points are likely going to mercenaries to bring things like ragman or A&H, so there isn't even space to marshal jacks to the gun mages like it is now... I know free points are all the rage now but you don't have to have 3 free solos. 40 points of gun mages still gives you up to 10 free points and leaves you the room for more armor cracking. The theme does also allow Merc units so you can take a unit of forgeguard, nyss, or devil dogs for extra armor cracking. The theme looks to really support our buffbot casters so you should have no problem delivering a Merc units under Murdoch.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 31, 2017 22:06:03 GMT
I agree that the changes are good. Now SoT is less hindered by stealth and cloudwalls, and Falk has more chance to survive to apply his debuff. Anyway, I still think that the main problem remains. The list really needs to do more damage in some way or another, and the best option for me is to allow jacks for free points. At the moment, you are forced to take 60 points of Gun Mages, that leaves you with only 15 points outside battlegroup. Those points are likely going to mercenaries to bring things like ragman or A&H, so there isn't even space to marshal jacks to the gun mages like it is now... I know free points are all the rage now but you don't have to have 3 free solos. 40 points of gun mages still gives you up to 10 free points and leaves you the room for more armor cracking. The theme does also allow Merc units so you can take a unit of forgeguard, nyss, or devil dogs for extra armor cracking. The theme looks to really support our buffbot casters so you should have no problem delivering a Merc units under Murdoch. Yeah I have been considering only 2 free slots with Caine1, and then taking Ragman, Aiyana and Holt and more warjacks to prop up arm cracking
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