Zeykk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 135
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Post by Zeykk on Aug 18, 2017 14:22:15 GMT
Lol I find it funny that Bokurs will work for nearly every faction in the game, they even opened up his availability earlier in the year, to have a theme that he would seem right at home in but refuses to work for in his native faction.
The more I look at this theme, the more I'm both excited and frustrated by it. A lot of options and hidden strengths that are right at home in Mercenaries. We'll just have to wait and see how powerful it truly is. I don't think Kingmakers will disappear, but Hammer Strike definitely has competition. I will probably be running some of my hammer strike lists in this theme just to see how the differences play out; though I LOVE my Repo 3, so that will be a hard pill to swallow. I think at the end of the day it will come down to play style and the power/efficiency of the free solos vs 2 free artillery. Now if only the other dwarf infantry were strong. Forge guard are good... if with Ossrum. And I've had some success with the TAC, but it could be better.
Also, I'm sad my dreams and use of dual Hammer Strike at tournaments will be dashed by this theme force. Yes, Ossrum will still work in Hammer Strike well. But we'll see how the options and strength pan out for the other two Rhul casters. I mean I could always keep running Hammer Strike out of stubbornness...
Wow that was a ramble... hopefully someone can pick something out of it that contributes to the ongoing conversation.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 18, 2017 14:47:00 GMT
If the irregular theme list really go live like this, I cant think of any reason not to use it. No affordable shield guards. GL with that with every other merc player now getting a free eiryss 1. Take Rutger Shaw, he has Drive 'Shield Guard' for his jack, and it gets flank in the theme, not to mention he is no slouch defensively or in combat as well.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 14:53:51 GMT
No affordable shield guards. GL with that with every other merc player now getting a free eiryss 1. Take Rutger Shaw, he has Drive 'Shield Guard' for his jack, and it gets flank in the theme, not to mention he is no slouch defensively or in combat as well. I won't be taking marshaled jacks. I know they tried to further incentivize it with flank but here's the deal. Let's say you bring that jack as your only shield guard. If I kill rutger it isn't a shield guard anymore. If I stationary the jack with a spell like "arantric bolt" he can't shield guard. A 5 point free solo is a lot easier to just keep behind you and not worry about getting work done. Keeping rutger and his jack in your backfield puts you down 2x as many points for the same purpose. Plus at that point you're losing out on any battlegroup benifits, in my 2 examples i cant have unyielding/escort OR locomotion/caine3 feat on the jack that a marshal brings. In games where you don't need the shieldguard as badly marshaled jacks still have no way to shake shadow bind, stationary, knockdown and will likely not often have the chance to contribute enough to the fight to make it worth while.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 18, 2017 15:11:02 GMT
Take Rutger Shaw, he has Drive 'Shield Guard' for his jack, and it gets flank in the theme, not to mention he is no slouch defensively or in combat as well. I won't be taking marshaled jacks. I know they tried to further incentivize it with flank but here's the deal. Let's say you bring that jack as your only shield guard. If I kill rutger it isn't a shield guard anymore. If I stationary the jack with a spell like "arantric bolt" he can't shield guard. A 5 point free solo is a lot easier to just keep behind you and not worry about getting work done. Keeping rutger and his jack in your backfield puts you down 2x as many points for the same purpose. Plus at that point you're losing out on any battlegroup benifits, in my 2 examples i cant have unyielding/escort OR locomotion/caine3 feat on the jack that a marshal brings. In games where you don't need the shieldguard as badly marshaled jacks still have no way to shake shadow bind, stationary, knockdown and will likely not often have the chance to contribute enough to the fight to make it worth while. Yeah KD and Stationary suck if you are a jack marshall, but there are plenty of instances where your opponent cannot easily stationary or KD your stuff, and Flank is pretty mental, even on a marshalled warjack. Yes they have drawbacks, but I feel like they offer some strong and exciting options.
edit, if you are very worried about KD then take Gorten with Solid Ground, along with Thor marshalling an Avalancher
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 15:14:38 GMT
I won't be taking marshaled jacks. I know they tried to further incentivize it with flank but here's the deal. Let's say you bring that jack as your only shield guard. If I kill rutger it isn't a shield guard anymore. If I stationary the jack with a spell like "arantric bolt" he can't shield guard. A 5 point free solo is a lot easier to just keep behind you and not worry about getting work done. Keeping rutger and his jack in your backfield puts you down 2x as many points for the same purpose. Plus at that point you're losing out on any battlegroup benifits, in my 2 examples i cant have unyielding/escort OR locomotion/caine3 feat on the jack that a marshal brings. In games where you don't need the shieldguard as badly marshaled jacks still have no way to shake shadow bind, stationary, knockdown and will likely not often have the chance to contribute enough to the fight to make it worth while. Yeah KD and Stationary suck if you are a jack marshall, but there are plenty of instances where your opponent cannot easily stationary or KD your stuff, and Flank is pretty mental, even on a marshalled warjack. Yes they have drawbacks, but I feel like they offer some strong and exciting options.
Yea. I guess I just think about that because my Ossyan list has 3 knockdowns, 1 shadow bind, and a stationary spell. I know for sure if someone brings a heavy jack like a mangler on a marshall ill find a way to slam/throw/knockdown that jack every single turn that i need to before i can kill it.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 18, 2017 15:21:38 GMT
Yeah KD and Stationary suck if you are a jack marshall, but there are plenty of instances where your opponent cannot easily stationary or KD your stuff, and Flank is pretty mental, even on a marshalled warjack. Yes they have drawbacks, but I feel like they offer some strong and exciting options.
Yea. I guess I just think about that because my Ossyan list has 3 knockdowns, 1 shadow bind, and a stationary spell. I know for sure if someone brings a heavy jack like a mangler on a marshall ill find a way to slam/throw/knockdown that jack every single turn that i need to before i can kill it. Yeah Ossyan would have a field day against Jack marshalls, I have had my marshalled Hammersmith arcantrik bolted by him, it was such a traumatic experience I dropped it from my list, so I can understand not thinking much or marshalled jacks
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 15:23:35 GMT
Yea. I guess I just think about that because my Ossyan list has 3 knockdowns, 1 shadow bind, and a stationary spell. I know for sure if someone brings a heavy jack like a mangler on a marshall ill find a way to slam/throw/knockdown that jack every single turn that i need to before i can kill it. Yeah Ossyan would have a field day against Jack marshalls, I have had my marshalled Hammersmith arcantrik bolted by him, it was such a traumatic experience I dropped it from my list, so I can understand not thinking much or marshalled jacks Having Battle Engines make a comeback was big enough, a shadow bound battle engine is a sad battle engine.
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Post by gobber on Aug 18, 2017 16:01:14 GMT
Yea. I guess I just think about that because my Ossyan list has 3 knockdowns, 1 shadow bind, and a stationary spell. I know for sure if someone brings a heavy jack like a mangler on a marshall ill find a way to slam/throw/knockdown that jack every single turn that i need to before i can kill it. Huh, that's definitely a concern to take into account. Also not a bad argument for freebooters (lash).
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Post by mikethefish on Aug 18, 2017 16:05:59 GMT
If the irregular theme list really go live like this, I cant think of any reason not to use it. No affordable shield guards. GL with that with every other merc player now getting a free eiryss 1. So let me get this straight. According to you, the lack of the Ogrun Bokur makes this Theme terrible, and completely uncompetitive? Is this seriously the point you are trying to make?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 16:13:40 GMT
Yea. I guess I just think about that because my Ossyan list has 3 knockdowns, 1 shadow bind, and a stationary spell. I know for sure if someone brings a heavy jack like a mangler on a marshall ill find a way to slam/throw/knockdown that jack every single turn that i need to before i can kill it. Huh, that's definitely a concern to take into account. Also not a bad argument for freebooters (lash). Problem is it's not girdled as well so a jack with an AOE can shoot your low DEF jack and boost blast damage on the marshal you b2b with it. Lash also doesnt stop stationary, shadow bind and other effects you can't shake when lacking focus.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 16:17:39 GMT
No affordable shield guards. GL with that with every other merc player now getting a free eiryss 1. So let me get this straight. According to you, the lack of the Ogrun Bokur makes this Theme terrible, and completely uncompetitive? Is this seriously the point you are trying to make? Not the Bokur specifically, the lack of an affordable shield guard makes utilizing the jack marshal bonus even less appealing than the other downsides of marshaling a jack. 11 points for a shield guard jack or 10 for rutger with a bucaneer is way to many points to pay for a single designated shield guard. The bokur is currently the only cheap shield guard solo available in faction and there's no mechanical or thematical reason he should not be included in the theme. Will people be able to come up with lists that don't need a shield guard? Sure. Would the option of being able to take him make the theme broken? Nope. Would including him in the theme open up room for MORE competitive lists to be made? Yes.
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Post by gobber on Aug 18, 2017 17:24:25 GMT
Problem is it's not girdled as well so a jack with an AOE can shoot your low DEF jack and boost blast damage on the marshal you b2b with it. Lash also doesnt stop stationary, shadow bind and other effects you can't shake when lacking focus. Does it have vulnerabilities? Absolutely. Removing knockdown drastically reduces the number of threats I have to manage, and many of the stationary/shadow bind effects (besides hypnos) could theoretically be covered by Orin who's still among the best free solo choices. Then there's opportunity cost; it's not always going to be worth your 18pt heavy is spending its activation to shadowbind a freebooter or give it a minor debuff by killing the marshal. Some combination of the freebooter being dirt cheap, KD-immune, performing reasonably well while autonomous (grab&smash, ability to get boosts vs KD) especially with Shae around, and threatening an average 26.5 damage against standing(!) khador heavies if it does get delivered with a free charge+crush+flank make the thing a special case.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 17:30:16 GMT
Problem is it's not girdled as well so a jack with an AOE can shoot your low DEF jack and boost blast damage on the marshal you b2b with it. Lash also doesnt stop stationary, shadow bind and other effects you can't shake when lacking focus. Does it have vulnerabilities? Absolutely. Removing knockdown drastically reduces the number of threats I have to manage, and many of the stationary/shadow bind effects (besides hypnos) could theoretically be covered by Orin who's still among the best free solo choices. Then there's opportunity cost; it's not always going to be worth your 18pt heavy is spending its activation to shadowbind a freebooter or give it a minor debuff by killing the marshal. Some combination of the freebooter being dirt cheap, KD-immune, performing reasonably well while autonomous (grab&smash, ability to get boosts vs KD) especially with Shae around, and threatening an average 26.5 damage against standing(!) khador heavies if it does get delivered with a free charge+crush+flank make the thing a special case. I do think people will find ways to make it work. But imagine like bart double galleon who couldn't find room for the shield guard but has availability of free solos. If you have a shadowfire gun in your army bart is done for hiding behind his 2 galleons. If he has a shield guard free solo he can bring... not as vulnerable. I'm not saying it will be impossible to find ways to work around this handicap... it's just making the theme a lot less viable than it would be if the Bokur could be taken as a free solo.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 17:41:02 GMT
So let's take a look at my 2 lists I had proposed before someone pointed out to me that Bokur was not allowed. Magnus the Warlord [+28] - Galleon [39] - Mangler [15] - Mangler [15] - Renegade [10] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [0] Ogrun Bokur [0] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [0] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8]
(Caine 3) Caine's Hellslingers [+20] - Galleon [39] - Mangler [15] - Mangler [15] - Ace [12] - Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator [4] Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [0] Ogrun Bokur [0] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [0] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5]
If I wanted to replace the Bokur with Shaw to get a shield guard on both of these lists here is what I'd have to do. Shaw in for bokur in both lists as my free solo. Then for Magnus I could drop idrians to a min unit and bring a bucaneer and for Caine3 I could drop a Mangler and replace it with A+H and a Talon on Shaw.
In Caine3 I lose an advance moving free charging heavy that I can use locomotion on for a Talon and Harm. In my Magnus list I lose out on 1/2 of my volume of attacks from a unit with prey( that A+H can give magical weapons when needed). It's not nearly as optimal and I don't see any justification for why Bokur isn't allowed. It's just silly to me. This also would require me to purchase 3 more models ( I already own everything I had in my previously planned lists) for a faction that I currently only play casually.
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Post by gobber on Aug 18, 2017 17:48:56 GMT
So let's take a look at my 2 lists I had proposed before someone pointed out to me that Bokur was not allowed. That was me. I agree it's confounding.
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