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Post by khador247 on Mar 10, 2017 13:58:24 GMT
I have been out of the loop lately. The last time I played a game was in October. My main gripe with MKIII at that time was melee infantry or more specifically the lack thereof in the game. Looking through my Khador red tinted glasses as I always do it seemed to me that melee infantry was both reduced in effectiveness (ex. lower DEF for IFP, loss of 2nd swing for Demo Corps) and maybe even more importantly became very expensive. Meanwhile we have some pretty cheap warjacks and more warjack points to play with. Also warjacks seem better equipped to deal with infantry with better MAT/RAT, power up, better melee range and bigger AOEs. So it seemed almost foolish to try to take melee infantry. Ranged infantry on the other hand was shining. For Khador particularly that meant Rifle Corps with rockets and Widowmakers. Playing a ranged game, especially in an environment with pre-measuring, just wasn't doing it for me.
So fast forward 5 months to today. Is the situation still pretty much like I'm describing above? If melee infantry is working for you, what specifically is working? I know that I've read about people liking MOW ST. I like the ARM and boxes and Desperate Pace certainly helps them. Do they do much for you offensively though? Does the officer help them much? I haven't bought him.
People seem pretty high on Uhlans. What specifically is making them look attractive? The appear to have the same rules as before aside from picking up reposition 3 and their point cost seems rather prohibitive.
Kayazy Assassins seem pretty attractive. I love the fact that they got Anatomical Precision back. The new version of Iron Flesh with immunity to blast damage seems tailor made for them. I had some success with them in the few MKIII games that I played up to the point I stopped playing.
So long story short what has been working for you and what hasn't or doesn't seem worth the points in regards to melee infantry?
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Mar 10, 2017 14:09:59 GMT
So not much has changed since 5 months. 1) Irusk2 is the man for infantry. IFx, Kayazy are good with him. 2) MoW ST have slowly cripled into many second lists (first lists are normally dominated by Jacks or masses of WGx and rockets) I personally like the ST performance under Vladimir2 and he makes the full package work effectively 3) Uhlans have recieved a rulebook buff - they hit with 3-dice on charges. That is huge so that their POW 16 charge actually hit most of the time. But still they are crippling out of most lists today back to shelves as two marauders give you almost the same destruction but better durability. And you get very disappointed when you try to compare them with Stormlances...
My own melee infantry is..WGRC under Vladimir 2. Feat + Joseph and they are str 15 on charge. Also any WGx are quite good in melee under Battlelust (see Irusk2).
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Post by frozenkommander on Mar 10, 2017 14:10:07 GMT
In regards to survivability: Melee infantry stay alive when they have a defensive buff on them, or the things that threat them are taken out. Iron Flesh appears to be the key spell here. ARM 21 Uhlans, ARM 20 IFP, ARM 23 Shocktroopers, blast immune Kayazy... you get the idea. In regards to IFP: I have been using Black Dragons all edition and I've found that I actually deliver them better than Mk2, because what commonly killed them, continuous fire, is not as prevalent, plus Shield Wall works against it. They stay alive the longest when they have Iron Flesh on them, as when they're in Shield Wall, they're ARM 20. That's extremely significant against all the anti infantry tech out there and requires boosted damage rolls in order to kill them. In regards to Shocktroopers: Shocktroopers are the nuts. Yes, they're "only" PS 14, but don't forget who we are . We can modify that so much. Irusk1 followed by Vlad2 are the best casters for them to be used under. How do you like the sound of ARM 19, 4+ Steady Tough, MAT 9 PS 14 Weapon Masters with RAT 7 POW 14 Assault shots? Lemme tell you, that stuff hurts. They also stick around for sooooo long that they can even tie down heavies that don't have a damage buff. The Officer is absolutely worth using because Steady and Sturdy are Tactics, while Assault is Granted. Plus, he's MAT 8 PS 15, so he's a great model to lead CMAs. He also makes the unit 6 guys, which is very significant for making Shield Wall formations (I still do the triangles). In regards to Uhlans: They've gone up in usage because of Cav changes giving them boosted attack rolls when they charge and their bump to MAT 7. They also randomly got Steady, which is nifty. They still have the "Cruise missile" feel to them, so I've treated them as essentially 5 extra Juggernaut swings that reach out much farther, because I always take them under a caster that buffs their damage. POW 16 alone doesn't cut it. They're best with Fury IMO because it also makes their mount POW 15. In regards to Kayazy: I've always preferred the Ladies way more than the larger unit because it's easier for me to use the Ladies, and they require zero caster support. Them gaining Anatomical Precision, to this day, is still an eyebrow raiser because PS 9 was their #1 problem, and it got fixed. I get so much work out of them.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 10, 2017 14:15:52 GMT
Basically everything frozenkommander said.
Also, since you've been out of the loop you won't know the suggested changes for SR2017. Zones can only be scored in by certain types of model now. I think round zone can only be scored by jacks and rectangular only by infantry. It might be the other way around. Also scoring is changing as well. Game doesn't end at first to 5, you need at least a 6 point lead now. It's still up for CID testing though which is apparently happening next month.
So like it or not people are going to have to start playing melee infantry.
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Post by Havock on Mar 10, 2017 14:18:53 GMT
Uhlans are better wizards than Greylords if you take them with eSorscha.
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Post by khador247 on Mar 10, 2017 14:51:44 GMT
Thanks for the input guys. Much appreciated. Yes I did hear about the proposed changes for SR2017. Sounds like another good reason to take MOW ST. If I do start playing again I should pick up the ST officer it sounds like.
Are Doom Reavers pretty much a lost cause right now?
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Post by frozenkommander on Mar 10, 2017 15:04:36 GMT
At the moment, yes. I think there could be some potential with taking a unit or two with Irusk2 since he gives them everything they want outside of more damage. Their main issue is they cost too much.
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Post by KingoftheNorth on Mar 10, 2017 15:04:46 GMT
Are Doom Reavers pretty much a lost cause right now? Their point cost is the main deterrent for them right now. Just too many better options to be had...Widowmaker Boat, Max WGRC, a Juggernaut/Kodiak etc etc.
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Post by khador247 on Mar 10, 2017 15:07:49 GMT
That's what I figured. I was hoping I was missing something. Bummer.
I really hope that the MOW theme is a good one. If I'm remembering correctly we're supposed to see that theme in May. Is that correct?
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Post by KingoftheNorth on Mar 10, 2017 15:10:20 GMT
I feel both Irusk2 and Zerkova1 provide an adequate delivery system for them however.
Irusk2 obviously straight forward with the tough bubble, placing them in the Artifice and Solid Ground.
Zerkova1 is more positioning dependent as you can build a cloud wall great. but things can still get through it to jam you or skirt the sides and shoot them. Just clump moderately in the middle for next turn and go to town
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Post by KingoftheNorth on Mar 10, 2017 15:11:35 GMT
I really hope that the MOW theme is a good one. If I'm remembering correctly we're supposed to see that theme in May. Is that correct? The hope is that it will be in the Command Book, which comes out April 12th
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Post by frozenkommander on Mar 10, 2017 15:11:46 GMT
Doomies are already naturally Tough (gained it in Mk3), so they don't need to be so close to Irusk.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Mar 10, 2017 15:25:30 GMT
I'm really liking infantry in this edition. Theme forces are bringing it back quite a bit. Iron fangs and man o wars are mostly what I have been using, though I still want to figure out a nice Butcher 2 mad dogs of war combo.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Mar 11, 2017 0:03:56 GMT
I've actually been having a relatively good time delivering my Doomreavers, though I do need more games to test this out. So far though, my pSorscha list that has three units has been able to get them into the thick of things. Her FOW, plus any terrain that I can manage to use plus using her FEAT to give them an extra turn to get up the table has worked out. I have been using Victor with her though, with the hopes that it will force my opponent to move up the board against me or else I will typically out range them. Like I said though, so far it has worked. Who knows about the near future?
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 11, 2017 0:35:04 GMT
I've been trying various melee infantry setups lately.
All mow and all fang lists need a theme. What it will allow is to have 4 units completely equipped with UA and kovniks, which allows for having 2 solid waves of premier arm cracking dudes. Without theme I wouldn't play them, 3 units is not enough.
Out of theme you basically take 1 wgrc with Joe and 30-40 other dudes. Lately I don't even bother with UAs, just all units. Ragman and Alexia1 (don' take Valachev) are both good force multipliers in all dude army. Jacks are Destroyers/Behemoth so at least something can shoot well, also good wave 2 with Ragman.
As far as casters are concerned I think Irusk 1 and Kozlov are the best for melee infantry spam. They both have fantastic feats for a big army and can Fury/Battle lust 2 units. Irusk 2 is more of a ranged infantry spam guy, he's having a hard time casting 2 Battle lusts and both his tough and cover bubble don't help infantry that charge ahead. WG theme force is perfect for him.
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