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Post by macdaddy on Aug 23, 2017 12:48:32 GMT
So, I earlier asked about Vigilant vs Devout. After my first game, a discussion with my opponent and a fellow Protectorate player, and seeing some of your lists, I'm wondering if either is really necessary. Perhaps just BoM and a Templar? Is it important for this list to have a sanctifier or is he just there because we have bodies to fuel it? Thoughts? In general, running a Vigilant or Devout with Thyra is a bad idea. The last thing that you want is a low def easily hit with a blast damage or electro leap warjack near your high Def low armour stealth caster. You're asking for a bad time. Use the terrain and her natural defenses to keep her safe and you'll do just fine. Spend those 9 points on items that will do real work and synergize well with her playstyle. I agree with his, I play Mohsar a lot in circle and e-leaps, sprays, and even blast damage will murder you if you put something big and targetable near your caster. I actually think a Guardian is a really solid second heavy to pari with BoM. It has a high pow reach weapon, it is an arc node to put stranglehold through if need be, and In my experience I have always gotten work out of it regardless of what caster I am using. Speed 4 is bad but compensated for thanks to 2" reach on the spear. ForEver_Blight you could turn the revengers into a guardian, turn the reckoner under tristan into 2 redeemers and make it look like this: Thyra: Hierophant BoM Reckoner Guardian Tristan -2X Redeemer 2X Vassal 2X Mechanic Wrack Avatar Max Chior
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 23, 2017 13:31:59 GMT
ForEver_Blight you could turn the revengers into a guardian, turn the reckoner under tristan into 2 redeemers and make it look like this: Thyra: Hierophant BoM Reckoner Guardian Tristan -2X Redeemer 2X Vassal 2X Mechanic Wrack Avatar Max Chior Seriously, get out of my brain. >.> I was working around either taking an Indictor or a Guardian. But wasn't sure if the Indictor's bit of utility really fit. But yes, the Guardian is a legit upgrade to the revengers. So I'm good with that. I just wonder if I will be able to keep it out of engagement. I think I like the state of that list.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Aug 23, 2017 20:27:47 GMT
So, I earlier asked about Vigilant vs Devout. After my first game, a discussion with my opponent and a fellow Protectorate player, and seeing some of your lists, I'm wondering if either is really necessary. Perhaps just BoM and a Templar? Is it important for this list to have a sanctifier or is he just there because we have bodies to fuel it? Thoughts? In general, running a Vigilant or Devout with Thyra is a bad idea. The last thing that you want is a low def easily hit with a blast damage or electro leap warjack near your high Def low armour stealth caster. You're asking for a bad time. Use the terrain and her natural defenses to keep her safe and you'll do just fine. Spend those 9 points on items that will do real work and synergize well with her playstyle. Good points, Especially the electro leap. But I'd just like to point out that I am in guardians theme so I am Blast immune next to a war-jack.
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Post by Andrivan on Aug 23, 2017 21:03:30 GMT
Next to a warjack yes, however Vigilants have always had girded so not much of a bonus there.
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Post by gianttourtiere on Aug 24, 2017 18:16:23 GMT
With the Devout and blast damage you're fine - Shield Guard is 3" and that's out of even an AOE 5. E-leap is potentially an issue.
I can say that I have never had cause to regret having the Devout for that reason so far.
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Post by Andrivan on Aug 27, 2017 14:03:18 GMT
However, you then have 9 pts in your army doing nothing but dry humping your caster that should be jumping forward to apply Carnage and jumping back. Those 9 pts could be spent on something that could actually do some work during the game - such as a unit of Knights Exemplar or min Cleansers or solos for scoring flags etc.
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Post by gianttourtiere on Aug 27, 2017 15:37:38 GMT
The thing is, I frequently do have the Devout end up doing work in the late game. SR2017 makes a strong case for putting in additional solos - but I've already got Nicia, Pyrrhus and a Vassal for that. KE do not impress me even a little in Mk 3 and Thyra doesn't do a lot to help them out (I want my Occultation on my Flamebringers). I would rather have the security for Thyra than a min unit of Cleansers every day of the week.
I mean, play without the Devout as you choose. I'm just saying it has worked for me very well and I've never felt like it was dead wood in the list.
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Post by Andrivan on Aug 28, 2017 1:56:52 GMT
My argument is that shield guards are fine, but but distance and placement are infinitely better. This is doubly true in SR 2017 when there is more terrain and more places to hide your caster, especially when there are so many more scoring elements. When most scenarios allow you to score 3 pts in a turn, the late game is harder to come by. The game ends on 7 regardless. Also- are you playing on tables with 8 pieces of terrain in SR2017? Your comments suggest that this may not be the case. A stealthed solo on a flag is extremely valuable. Flamebringers don't have much use for stealth if they can move through a wood, attack the opponent, side step and repo back through the wood or terrain. Not being seen is much better than stealth.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 28, 2017 2:14:46 GMT
My argument is that shield guards are fine, but but distance and placement are infinitely better. This is doubly true in SR 2017 when there is more terrain and more places to hide your caster, especially when there are so many more scoring elements. When most scenarios allow you to score 3 pts in a turn, the late game is harder to come by. The game ends on 7 regardless. Also- are you playing on tables with 8 pieces of terrain in SR2017? Your comments suggest that this may not be the case. A stealthed solo on a flag is extremely valuable. Flamebringers don't have much use for stealth if they can move through a wood, attack the opponent, side step and repo back through the wood or terrain. Not being seen is much better than stealth. Every game I have played in SR2017 never makes it to turn 7, someone always clocks out around turn 5 or 6 at the latest. I do agree on the whole solo on a flag and Flamebringer point. Durable solos are gonna be great for scenario when it comes to flags.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 28, 2017 17:52:50 GMT
So with the new CiD "Faithful masses" I'm really having to rethink the creators might idea. Though I will still test both. one is more time constrained that the other. I have two ideas. The possibly better Idea is the a hope to "checkmate" conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0O3K3N1S3U3q3k3k7je41q1q3t3t3z3z3B3B303G3HProtectorate Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] The Faithful Masses (CID) (Thyra 1) Thyra, Flame of Sorrow [+29] - Blood of Martyrs [16] - Castigator [12] - Sanctifier [14] - Hierophant [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Anastasia di Bray [3] Initiate Tristan Durant [4] - Dervish [7] - Dervish [7] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [3] Vassal of Menoth [3] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0(5)] Focusing on the assassination pressure and stupid amount of movement possible under feat. Anastasia is (hopefully) an enabler. If the caster slants to one table edge or another the hope is to have her ambush in and get off an espionage with any of the following. Castigator; can then move up 7" under feat before activating to walk/charge with an autohit combustion (this can be done before walking right?). It's not such an important jack that I can't deploy it for this idea. Dervishes; because parry would then let them walk on through for the espionage. Sidestep and feat lets it get a long way around more enemy models. Punch monks; because why not get up in the face of that ranged primary caster and shake hands? The second idea is more picky and very strange for a caster designed like Thyra. But I'm an oddball. conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0O3K3N1H2d2d3q3s7_3t3t3z3z3B3B3B303G3HProtectorate Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] The Faithful Masses (CID) (Thyra 1) Thyra, Flame of Sorrow [+29] - Blood of Martyrs [16] - Revenger [10] - Vanquisher [17] - Vanquisher [17] - Hierophant [3] Reclaimer Gatekeeper [3] Taryn di la Rovissi, Llaelese Gun Mage [5] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [3] Vassal of Menoth [3] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0(5)] The Merc solo changes the intent of the list entirely. This is to try for an assassination against the cagey back line casters. Shadow fire on targets that are standing in the way. The possibility to arch stranglehold to a model hiding behind a jack through the revenger. Then just the ridiculous scare of idrians with prey on said model that "was" safe behind the jack. Vanquishers are there to pull double duty as their gun is powerful for the assassination as well as a carnage thresher if needed. Taryn also can unjam the jacks with black penny. The feat placement could get the guns into aiming range of w/e. Reclaimer for future sight on that one giant CRA. Or jack shots. Ashen veil on Thyra would not go unwanted... and I thought that it would be rude to let those souls go to waste.
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Post by gianttourtiere on Aug 30, 2017 23:26:08 GMT
My argument is that shield guards are fine, but but distance and placement are infinitely better. This is doubly true in SR 2017 when there is more terrain and more places to hide your caster, especially when there are so many more scoring elements. When most scenarios allow you to score 3 pts in a turn, the late game is harder to come by. The game ends on 7 regardless. Also- are you playing on tables with 8 pieces of terrain in SR2017? Your comments suggest that this may not be the case. A stealthed solo on a flag is extremely valuable. Flamebringers don't have much use for stealth if they can move through a wood, attack the opponent, side step and repo back through the wood or terrain. Not being seen is much better than stealth. I said in my first post that I haven't played it in SR 2017. Disagree strongly about stealth being bad on the Flamebringers as a general point. Obviously if there's a convenient wood that might change your plans, but you sure can't count on it.
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