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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 4, 2017 13:48:55 GMT
Well I think some of the A+ class stuff was S+ in design, so CID toned it down anyway.
It's just a case that a faction with no duds becomes the smoothest thing possible with no kinks. Id say none of their stuff is overpowered in a vacume.
Just the lack of bumps decreases friction which increases the momentum meaning the faction hits like a truck.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 4, 2017 14:02:25 GMT
draycos yeah people commented a lot on how hard it was to Assasinate the heretic. But they kept a lot of his durability and special rules. I think they just want him to feel God like on the table so he is going to seem over the top. Makes sense... Counter Arguement... Avatar of Menoth. Figuratively and half literally a god. Barely sees play outside of a few specific lists. It's not that I want Grymkin knocked down... I just want toys that are as good and interesting! Is that to much to ask? Apparently. Another point of the same subject: Harbinger herself has the same rules on knockdown and attacks, but with a 14/14 large base is near impossible to protect without investing about 35 points in a mobile "bunker".
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Aug 4, 2017 15:02:23 GMT
I want to clarify... Grymkin have very little that doesn't show up elsewhere in the game. It is just a "nightmare" in Grymkin as it all falls into place far more coherently than in other factions. Grymkin is Dialed to 11. They feel like they have all the same options crammed onto fewer models.
I really don't mean to complain either. I just cannot help but think... What if everything in Grymkin had been "re-purposed" for other factions (including the time spent in development and CID). I.E. Bastions or a paladin unit with all the Rules of Piggybacks. (replace Snacking of course) Crabbits fill the role that I think shredders wish they could. A Six man unit of Dread Rots is a cheaper (albeit weaker) KE Unit with a secondary support role. These types of Things are just silly thoughts in the back of my mind that wont go away. Maybe this will Subside once we see the changes in the upcoming theme and exemplar CID.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 4, 2017 15:09:58 GMT
I really don't mean to complain either. I just cannot help but think... What if everything in Grymkin had been "re-purposed" for other factions I thought the exact same thing when the Convergence was released. Honestly just roll with the punches and think of England. Did you buy shock-troopers? Well how about a unit that does everything they do, and are repairable by default to boot! Also, they do everything better and have a better statline! Designing a new faction is always easier than just adding options to an old one. I see that's a big reason why they are "Splitting" the factions up. Just wait for what you want to get redone. It may take a while.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 4, 2017 15:53:26 GMT
Except Convergence wasn't like Grymkin at all in terms of power level. Yes, the entire faction does work together quite nicely overall with few duds(upon release). Yet they weren't completely riding the tip of the power curve as Grymkin are. So its not just that the faction is entirely streamlined.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 4, 2017 16:27:32 GMT
We don't technically know how grymkin will settle out in the meta yet though. I do think they have glaring weaknesses.
RFP shuts down thier ability to collect corpses from thier own army,
Arcan CAN be played around and I think it will just take time getting used to them
Thier Beasts hit like a truck but are just as vulnerable as any other Warbeast to getting jammed. They have good arm stats with the DK and corpses but with RFP you can shut that down.
They really hate gunlines. Especially stealth ignoring ones. Old witch and king of nothing cloudwall are an exception but the rest need to really brick up (Dreamer) or only have moderate defensive tech (Wanderer)
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 4, 2017 16:29:18 GMT
Except Convergence wasn't like Grymkin at all in terms of power level. Yes, the entire faction does work together quite nicely overall with few duds(upon release). Yet they weren't completely riding the tip of the power curve as Grymkin are. So its not just that the faction is entirely streamlined. I don't fully agree. The Grymkin design ethos has everything they have being really good. Similar to ret just with even less duds. To me this demonstrated the power of communal design. They are high on the curve because there is no chaff, not necessarily because any individual thing is to OP. In fact, PP had nerfed some stuff despite fan demand. To me the Convergence demonstrates very similar stuff. Drag abilities with puncture for instance. What required a damage roll before is now automatic. If the convergence had a CID they would be right alongside the grymkin.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 4, 2017 16:46:40 GMT
We don't technically know how grymkin will settle out in the meta yet though. I do think they have glaring weaknesses. RFP shuts down thier ability to collect corpses from thier own army, Arcan CAN be played around and I think it will just take time getting used to them Thier Beasts hit like a truck but are just as vulnerable as any other Warbeast to getting jammed. They have good arm stats with the DK and corpses but with RFP you can shut that down. They really hate gunlines. Especially stealth ignoring ones. Old witch and king of nothing cloudwall are an exception but the rest need to really brick up (Dreamer) or only have moderate defensive tech (Wanderer) seeing as you're posting this from the menoth boards, we carry very little of that. what would you suggest we actually play into them then? Is it just sevvy 2 gunline for the whole faction?
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Aug 4, 2017 17:00:38 GMT
We don't technically know how grymkin will settle out in the meta yet though. I do think they have glaring weaknesses. RFP shuts down thier ability to collect corpses from thier own army, Arcan CAN be played around and I think it will just take time getting used to them Thier Beasts hit like a truck but are just as vulnerable as any other Warbeast to getting jammed. They have good arm stats with the DK and corpses but with RFP you can shut that down. They really hate gunlines. Especially stealth ignoring ones. Old witch and king of nothing cloudwall are an exception but the rest need to really brick up (Dreamer) or only have moderate defensive tech (Wanderer) I do agree, Grymkin mostly hate gun lines. But if the King of nothing and old witch can cover those match ups that seems like a pretty good pairing. Do all Factions have RFP easily available? My 2 games against Grymkin (see above) both felt like uphill battles. This was two games where my opponent forgot about corpses completely. I did not realize he had so much that relied on them. This resulted in games that felt harder than they should despite my opponent not using his corpse related abilities. I have since looked over all of the Grymkin and I am dumbfounded at how much harder those two games would have been had he properly applied corpse collection, allocation, and abilities.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 4, 2017 17:31:28 GMT
Yeah. Through the whole CID I had a nagging feeling of ''why is this faction built in such a way that it almost totally bones protectorate?"
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 9, 2017 4:45:47 GMT
Had a game vs Grymkin tonight. Heretic vs Vindictus. Grindiest game ever. Ended on turn 7. Won by one control point with us both scoring 2 points a turn, but I was up one.
Piggybacks are way too durable for their cost. I got caught by the Aracana that wipes spells out so my big turn wasn't as big as it could have been. But in the end I ground it out.
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Post by Dave G on Aug 9, 2017 10:43:26 GMT
I'd just warn to be too quick in judging Grymkin. It seem's to be both a knowledge intensive faction to play and to play against. It's the nature of trap cards and counter mechanics that pre-knowledge is vastly more important.
I'm also not particularly good at following my own advice.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Aug 9, 2017 15:15:20 GMT
The Piggybacks are far too durable in my opinion... Most factions have units to block with. However, they are Tar pits. They slow you down but eventually you wade through them. Piggybacks are like a wall. That can charge you.
As for the Arcana... It is impossible to play around many of them. The triggers are as broad as "when a friendly warrior model is disabled." I don't mind that though. Feats are similar. You can play into them better by knowing what they do, but you cannot prevent them from being used. I personally think that Arcana are the same way. Accept the fact that they will trigger but be ready to deal with the consequences.
This brings me to my issue with Arcana. In my mind: many of them are equivalent to 75% of a normal feat, but they have three of them. that's 2.25 feats... The down side being that they tend to be situational. To add counter act this however, the secondary Arcana are selected at the start of the game (after list selection I believe.) This just adds to the feeling that they are a "well oiled machine" and that it is always an "Uphill battle" against them.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 9, 2017 15:25:18 GMT
The Piggybacks are far too durable in my opinion... Most factions have units to block with. However, they are Tar pits. They slow you down but eventually you wade through them. Piggybacks are like a wall. That can charge you. As for the Arcana... It is impossible to play around many of them. The triggers are as broad as "when a friendly warrior model is disabled." I don't mind that though. Feats are similar. You can play into them better by knowing what they do, but you cannot prevent them from being used. I personally think that Arcana are the same way. Accept the fact that they will trigger but be ready to deal with the consequences. This brings me to my issue with Arcana. In my mind: many of them are equivalent to 75% of a normal feat, but they have three of them. that's 2.25 feats... The down side being that they tend to be situational. To add counter act this however, the secondary Arcana are selected at the start of the game (after list selection I believe.) This just adds to the feeling that they are a "well oiled machine" and that it is always an "Uphill battle" against them. their one that removes construct, undead, etc AND gives grievous over an entire control area should have been 2 different arcana. That one REALLY gets me....especially since grievous is stupidly powerful into our faction even though we don't actually have much tough.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 9, 2017 16:05:43 GMT
I don't think grevious wounds is much of an issue for us specifically. Its more that its good against certain types of lists which could be in any faction.
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