Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 2, 2017 15:08:29 GMT
My store got their grymkin boxes in last week. I don't think anyone bought one (we like having food too much) yet but I know there are several who want to.
Anyone have experience into these guys yet? If so, what did you notice that wed have particularly easy or hard times with?
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 3, 2017 1:36:24 GMT
Arcana typically suck to play around. The heretic with dude Spam is disgusting and The dreamer and wanderer will punk you by surprise if you aren't careful.
They have a lot of ways to poop on upkeeps and defensive buffs. They bring lots of cheap spammy hard hitting infantry but if the decide to play child or Dreamer in a beast brick they can play a really grindy game of attrition.
Overall I find them to be really good into a lot of match ups. Casters like the child and heretic struggle to protect thier army from guns outside of some arcana. Wanderer, King of Nothing, and Old witch ate solid into gunlines but Sevy 2 can counter King of nothing.
Your going to see a lot of the heretic. He really is a strong Lock. And sadly I feel like he plays into us very well due to his toolkit.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 3, 2017 6:12:21 GMT
Grymkin are very much OP overall. Too well oiled. It's really sad that they didn't get toned down my in the CID. It was very much a bad case of fan-wanking instead of honestly trying to make a balanced faction.
The Arcana are annoying, especially since they can be tailored to your opponent. And their power level ranges from 1/3 of a feat(what they should be) to better than many actual Feats.
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Post by charlzheimer on Aug 3, 2017 13:08:06 GMT
i have fought the grymkin and they are indeed a well oiled machine.
they aren't overpowered though. just anoying.
edit: ARcana cards interupt your flow of thought.
you whipped up a counter to your opponents turn and begin executing them with all potential dicerolls gooing avarage or spiking one way or the other.
you thought it over, made a plan and your executing said plan. THEN the arcana hits...the arcana now suddenly disrupts the plan already in motion.
a new element is introduced to made your executed move less optimal and now you have to rethink your next moves DURING your turn (and probably clock).
this is simular to needing 4's to hit and rolling snake eyes thrice instead.
it feels SHITTY, but thats about it.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 3, 2017 13:21:57 GMT
yeah, that whole "well oiled" thing is the feeling I get from their cards. The "conditions" of a list (getting corpses around, having the right arcana for the job, applying force in the appropriate ways, protecting the right models) are laughably easy most of the time, and they handily counter most of the defensive tech that would stop them, forcing people to rely on raw stats to do it instead.
I DO feel that a lot of our casters have some game, but the issue is that almost no one has good game into all of them. Harbinger, Testament, High Reclaimer, and Vindictus, would all appear to be casually stopped by selectable Arcana. Any of the feoras would probably do well, unless the child is in play (which will turn into a pretty bad fight for F2, and not exactly easy for f3. Also, cleansers are unplayable into that faction since their minifeat turn is worth an arcana on its own.)
Maybe we have to turn to the Lamentation casters? I don't see many immediate issues for a Kreoss 1 list that packs some idrians,
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Post by dicebedamned on Aug 3, 2017 13:30:02 GMT
I only played them back in CID, but I hate the Arcana system. MK3 was supposed to remove negative play, well to me having your opponent custom pick 3 abilities to screw your list over, which activate when you are trying to do something productive in YOUR turn is very much negative play.
I fortunately do not have any friends that can afford them, but I probably wouldn't play them if I could get a game elsewhere.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Aug 3, 2017 13:45:16 GMT
yeah, that whole "well oiled" thing is the feeling I get from their cards. The "conditions" of a list (getting corpses around, having the right arcana for the job, applying force in the appropriate ways, protecting the right models) are laughably easy most of the time, and they handily counter most of the defensive tech that would stop them, forcing people to rely on raw stats to do it instead. I DO feel that a lot of our casters have some game, but the issue is that almost no one has good game into all of them. Harbinger, Testament, High Reclaimer, and Vindictus, would all appear to be casually stopped by selectable Arcana. Any of the feoras would probably do well, unless the child is in play (which will turn into a pretty bad fight for F2, and not exactly easy for f3. Also, cleansers are unplayable into that faction since their minifeat turn is worth an arcana on its own.) Maybe we have to turn to the Lamentation casters? I don't see many immediate issues for a Kreoss 1 list that packs some idrians, Why are Cleansers bad into Grymkin, and why Feoras are bad into the Child?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 3, 2017 13:47:54 GMT
Lighting the all the beasts on fire gives the child free charges on ALL OF THEM, while not really hurting them much. Cleansers will blow their minifeat, then lose the assault charge to an arcana.
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2017 14:02:47 GMT
Lighting the all the beasts on fire gives the child free charges on ALL OF THEM, while not really hurting them much. Cleansers will blow their minifeat, then lose the assault charge to an arcana. If fire damages a beast, FM pain response kicks in. That said, lets not fool ourselves into thinking the Child doesnt have PR on all its beasts pretty much on demand anyway. Feora1 completely wrecks Bump dudespam lists.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 3, 2017 14:24:38 GMT
Lighting the all the beasts on fire gives the child free charges on ALL OF THEM, while not really hurting them much. Cleansers will blow their minifeat, then lose the assault charge to an arcana. If fire damages a beast, FM pain response kicks in. That said, lets not fool ourselves into thinking the Child doesnt have PR on all its beasts pretty much on demand anyway. Feora1 completely wrecks Bump dudespam lists. I'd actually expect any of the feoras to do quite well into grymkin except for the child (and I'd hate playing f3 into the heretic)
Feora 1: goodbye to 2/3s of your dudes, and you can only get so many corpses at one single time from it. Feora 2: goodbye to each single dude that actually individually mattered, plus I'm ARM 19 camping 5+ and fire doesn't set off a lot of your arcanas. Feora 3: eat the "no order" arcana with charging cleansers, then use incite to make everyone else do all the work anyway. double fun with daughters who wouldn't even set off most useful arcanas but light the enemy on fire anyway.
EDIT: hit submit too early. The problem is that they CAN do all this, but the child and the heretic are excellent drops into feora, so the "counter of my counter" thing exists. And one of those two will almost certainly be in a grymkin pairing.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Aug 3, 2017 18:20:22 GMT
I have played two games against my local (and learning) Grymikin player.
The first, was at 50 points. I ran Malekus (I forget my list exactly... Eye of Truth, Reckoner, Repenter (2?), Cleansers + UA, Support.) He ran the Grymkin box (Heretic, Cage Rager, Skin and Moans, Gorehound, Hollowmen + UA, Dread Rots, Piggy Backs, Lord Longfellow, Witch Wood.) I won by late game assassination under feat, using Eye to channel some spells. But man was it a Slug fest.
Second game I was running a Kreoss1 gun line. He added some Neighsayers, Cask imps, and the battle engine. I feated on turn two (I went second) and knocked down basically his entire army. At this point I learned the Heretic cannot be knocked down (does he have enough rules?) In response my Vanquisher kills all but one of his Hollowmen (UA included) with a single shot. A redeemer takes out all but three Dread rots and a few cask imps that had not blown themselves up already, and my second redeemer blows Skin and Moans of the board in one of the most impressive shows of force (and dice) I have seen in a long time. On my opponent's turn everything auto rises from theme(starting to hate the Grymkin at this point with a burning passion) and Heretic walks over and Gallows me, Pulling Kreoss into charge range of the three remaining Dread Rots. They and a single 4 dice attack (I am a character and I am damaged) from Lord Longfellow finish me off.
No arcana were used either game due to short games with no reason to use the selected arcana.
Grymkin... I don't feel like they are unbeatable or broken... and I enjoyed my games against them. This is due mostly to my opponent being friendly and discussing strategies with me during the game. We are both learning.
That being said... Grymkin do not feel fun to play against. All of their models seem like they have a perfect set of rules, or more rules than their points worth. Perfectly "Well Oiled" is a great description for how they feel when you fight them. Piggybacks... are better (harder to remove) than I would ask of a bastion CID. Longfellow is 6 points but has an easy to trigger set of rules leading to 2 four dice Rat 7, Pow 10 attacks (capable of ignoring target in melee). Gorehound moves so fast he tied up at least one of my ranged models on turn two both games. The second was avoided only because Gorehound was knocked down and I could walk away to make my ranged attacks. The units feel a little more manageable but I assume this was only because I had good aoe removal both games. Cage Rager and the BE did not do much but this is because my opponent did not realize the corpse mechanics until after the game. (I did not read the Grymkin cards so I didn't know he was missing out either.)
TL;DR (never done this before...): Grymkin might not be broken once we all find counters but they sure feel overpowered when facing them. Recursion, Buffs, Debuffs, Denial... they feel like they have an excellent version of everything, without any of the useless extras.
Edited for clarity.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Aug 3, 2017 19:02:13 GMT
FYI draycos, they didn't stand up due to Heretic. The Bump in the Night theme list gives rise to all warrior models.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Aug 4, 2017 5:06:56 GMT
FYI draycos, they didn't stand up due to Heretic. The Bump in the Night theme list gives rise to all warrior models. Fixed. Thank you! So many rules to learn...
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 4, 2017 12:36:45 GMT
draycos yeah people commented a lot on how hard it was to Assasinate the heretic. But they kept a lot of his durability and special rules. I think they just want him to feel God like on the table so he is going to seem over the top.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Aug 4, 2017 13:47:57 GMT
draycos yeah people commented a lot on how hard it was to Assasinate the heretic. But they kept a lot of his durability and special rules. I think they just want him to feel God like on the table so he is going to seem over the top. Makes sense... Counter Arguement... Avatar of Menoth. Figuratively and half literally a god. Barely sees play outside of a few specific lists. It's not that I want Grymkin knocked down... I just want toys that are as good and interesting! Is that to much to ask?
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