bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
|
Post by bluebeard on Aug 2, 2017 4:41:24 GMT
When is it useful to use the theme FoW? And what are the better casters for it? I would assume Rahn and pVyros, but what opinions are out there?
|
|
faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
|
Post by faelin on Aug 2, 2017 4:44:59 GMT
Helynna too.
|
|
|
Post by Demeritus on Aug 2, 2017 5:11:44 GMT
Helynna Vyros 2 and Rahn can all use it well without feeling too much of a hit from not taking units. Vyros 2 is almost exclusively played in Forges now. I feel like Vyros 1 losses out on too much given that he favours a combined arms style of play.
|
|
dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
|
Post by dagowit on Aug 2, 2017 6:34:08 GMT
I agree with Demeritus that Helynna, Rahn, and Vyros2 are the typical (and solid) choices but people have been running Forges of War with others as well (Thyron seemed decent and I personally want to try Elara2 for the effective P+S 24 'jack marshalled Manticores). Here are a couple of other threads with discussions of Forges of War, so you might want to browse through those as well: lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/693/double-forges-war-tournament-pairlormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/814/forges-warWhat I think has changed is that the House Shyeel Arcanists really help with focus allocation so that 'casters like Helynna get to shine by actually using their spells. In other words, my first thought when going through old Forges of War lists would be "could I benefit by dropping a Light and getting a unit of Arcanists in there?"
|
|
bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
|
Post by bluebeard on Aug 2, 2017 16:50:15 GMT
Thank you for the input all. I'm definitely going to check out those links. I may have to purchase Helynna and more jacks!
|
|
dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
|
Post by dagowit on Aug 2, 2017 20:24:17 GMT
Thank you for the input all. I'm definitely going to check out those links. I may have to purchase Helynna and more jacks! Well, Helynna is currently only available in our Battlebox, so if you get her you can't help but get more 'jacks :-) I'll bring her (and Forges of War) to the Iron Moot Champions event this weekend (with a list I blatantly stole from Irusk2k and then added Shyeel Arcanists to). I'll let you know how it works out.
|
|
|
Post by nightflier on Aug 3, 2017 4:56:06 GMT
Thyron can suprise you with being able to run it really differently. I use this list
War Room Army
Retribution of Scyrah - Forge of Truth
Theme: Forges of War 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army 0 / 20 Specialist
Thyron, Sword of Truth - WJ: +27 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 0 - Griffon - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Griffon - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Griffon - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Manticore - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Manticore - PC: 14 - Phoenix - PC: 18 - Phoenix - PC: 18
House Shyeel Artificer - PC: 0 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 0 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2
House Shyeel Battle Mages - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
THEME: Forges of War ---
GENERATED : 08/02/2017 23:42:14 BUILD ID : 2047.17-07-25
The key is to use the three griffons as a front line unit, manticores hold back the tide of infantry blocking key charges. Phoenixes use their superior threat range with assail to alpha down a heavy. If they survive they can start combusting infantry swarms. Hold the feat till after the lines have met. If the covering fires were used well your forces should still be mostly intact at this point. Feat to get maximum infantry clear from your griffons and mages. Use your focus on your heavies to peice trade out for theirs.
If you get to the point where you've kept up on senario and the attrition has worn the opponent down to where they are going to have real issues dealing with Thyron. If this is like turn 4 or 5 (turns really get drawn out with this list, good on clock but fairly slow paced) you can probably win by using Thyron to control a zone, and the rest of the army keeps the Opponent occupied. Get an edge on senario and win on turn seven.
Due to the nature of the list, matchups are really nuanced and lots of games are going to be needed to get the nessassary to figure out how the specific matchup plays. And the various matchup issues that can present themselves to late for you to do anything about it.
|
|
|
Post by adakai on Aug 7, 2017 15:06:50 GMT
I think Helynna in Forges of War is a trap. The limited option of units really hurts her. Vyros 2 gets away with it and arguably Rahn. But for Helynna, I think you're gonna have a bad time if you run her in Forges
|
|
matsif
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
|
Post by matsif on Aug 7, 2017 16:08:21 GMT
I think Helynna in Forges of War is a trap. The limited option of units really hurts her. Vyros 2 gets away with it and arguably Rahn. But for Helynna, I think you're gonna have a bad time if you run her in Forges not going to full out say you're wrong, as I only just got into ret and don't have a ton of experience with them yet, but I am curious as to why you think this. in the few games I've played with her in FoW I've never felt she was bad for it.
|
|
|
Post by adakai on Aug 7, 2017 18:02:38 GMT
not going to full out say you're wrong, as I only just got into ret and don't have a ton of experience with them yet, but I am curious as to why you think this. in the few games I've played with her in FoW I've never felt she was bad for it. It's really tempting to want to run her full on jack heavy in FoW but I believe Helynna thrives when she can run a mixed arms list with good infantry unit (which FoW is extremely lacking). When you take her in FoW you are bound to run into some really sticky situations. Curious, what were your match ups and what is your FoW list?
|
|
dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
|
Post by dagowit on Aug 7, 2017 19:30:53 GMT
So, the Iron Moot Champions has come and gone and I kept running into Cryx and enough infantry that I had to drop Thyron. That meant I ran Helynna in exactly one match (because doing so is required) and that match was Iron Mother who is probably one of the worst matchups imaginable (I didn't think through the "Dominate and Backlash and have about 20 Solos shoot a Light Myrmidon for one damage each"-situation, handily murdering every Warcaster through any camp over two turns).
I saw another player who did decently with Helynna in Forges (all Heavies plus 3 Arcanists).
Despite my failure, I still think Helynna solves certain problematic matchups in Forges of War. With a Firefly, Electro Leaps become POW 12, killing Dawnguard b2b on average rolls (unless you use feat or mini-feat that turn). Warjacks survive this significantly better. Playing Champions, I was also worried about Caine3 and wanted a list with a ton of Shield Guards. She can be good with infantry in the mix (I played her that way before the Theme dropped) but she presents much more of a skew in Theme (for better of for worse). Which version you want depends on what bases you are trying to cover.
|
|
matsif
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
|
Post by matsif on Aug 8, 2017 3:42:52 GMT
It's really tempting to want to run her full on jack heavy in FoW but I believe Helynna thrives when she can run a mixed arms list with good infantry unit (which FoW is extremely lacking). When you take her in FoW you are bound to run into some really sticky situations. Curious, what were your match ups and what is your FoW list? I'm fairly new to the game, with only about 8 games so far, 3 of which were borrowing a friend's protectorate stuff, and another 2 were only 50pt games with Vyros1, and don't own a ton of models yet. I currently own the battlegroup box, the 2017 50pt army box with vyros1, 2 extra shyeel heavy kits, 2 extra arcanists, 2 units of battle mages, elara2, and some other things that aren't in theme like a unit of stormfall archers and a heavy rifle team. so the list I've used so far is the following: Helynna -Sylys (free from theme) -3 griffons -2 manticores -hydra -phoenix -chimera 3 arcanist mechanics (2 free from theme) 1 unit of battle mages I basically used the griffons as some front line blockers with covering fire from the manticores while I approached, kept the hydra back as a shield guard for Helynna and as a sniper piece, and used the manticores and phoenix as the muscle. the chimera was generally up at the front for a quicker arc node and for throwing things out of the way. rhythm of war was up at the game's start and free for the whole of both games thanks to Sylys, and with 2 arc nodes I was able to throw out hand of destruction basically wherever I wanted and a few obliterations to nuke my opponents' support pieces when I couldn't snipe them with the hydra/manticores. I used the battle mages basically just to score in unit zones and to push/pull some things out of the way. the 2 games I've played with her so far were against circle and skorne. I don't think either of my opponents were running themes, but I know basically nothing about hordes, so I don't know this for a fact. in the circle game (outlast), I ended up losing because I made a dumb mistake and left Helynna open to get dragged in by one of the wolfs (I don't remember the beast's name, but the effect was basically the same thing as a cryx reaper) with no focus, which was basically an instant kill. had I not done that, I likely would have won on the next turn barring bad dice due to having clear charge lanes for 2 or 3 jacks with some maneuvering via the battle mages and Helynna. just got too greedy on my flag and tunnel visioned on scenario, otherwise I was mostly controlling the board. in the skorne game (breakdown), I was able to win on scenario by keeping my battle mages back in a zone with a manticore and phoenix screening them and pushing things out of the way with the mages while contesting the jack zone with my other jacks. but my opponent also had a lot of terrible rolls, which caused some of his beasts to frenzy into his own stuff and lots of misses on my jacks, while I was rolling fairly hot all night. He also didn't have infantry to score the opposite unit zone between me shooting them down and obliteration, and the terrain greatly benefited me as my mages were able to sit in a forest in the zone and Helynna was able to more or less hide behind a house partially in the central zone. in both games, I never once felt like having some sentinels or other infantry I may or may not own would have been greatly beneficial. that's not to say they wouldn't have been nice to have, just that I never felt that they were necessary. and, as stated, I'm pretty new to the game overall and am just trying to learn more while I build up my army, so it's not a matter of me saying I know better, just me wanting to learn.
|
|
isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
|
Post by isotope on Aug 9, 2017 14:27:14 GMT
It's really tempting to want to run her full on jack heavy in FoW but I believe Helynna thrives when she can run a mixed arms list with good infantry unit (which FoW is extremely lacking). When you take her in FoW you are bound to run into some really sticky situations. Curious, what were your match ups and what is your FoW list? I love dropping helynna double sentinels into the mirror match. On feat/minifeat turn you catch your oponent off guard. They think covering fire keeps them safe from sentinels until they realize they need boxcars to kill.
|
|
|
Post by adakai on Aug 9, 2017 15:27:31 GMT
I love dropping helynna double sentinels into the mirror match. On feat/minifeat turn you catch your oponent off guard. They think covering fire keeps them safe from sentinels until they realize they need boxcars to kill. Ahah right! but I think they only need 10s to kill? (Which is still very unlikely tbh) Those sentinels are getting in there and it will not be fun for the opponent lol
|
|
isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
|
Post by isotope on Aug 9, 2017 15:31:22 GMT
I love dropping helynna double sentinels into the mirror match. On feat/minifeat turn you catch your oponent off guard. They think covering fire keeps them safe from sentinels until they realize they need boxcars to kill. Ahah right! but I think they only need 10s to kill? (Which is still very unlikely tbh) Those sentinels are getting in there and it will not be fun for the opponent lol It was 10s until I figured out the trick. I know Decel doesn't work. So since I have Scyir and he grants tactician within 9" you just declare run charge, run your first model to .01 from the covering fire template then make sure that every other model making a run or a charge is passing over him or b2b with him for the wall of steel bonus when they make contact with the covering fire template. I know, I know... I'm a genius
|
|