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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 2, 2017 16:56:08 GMT
Voltaic Snare on Colossals was his main trick since MK2 (actually, in MK2 was even worse!) Nemo1 was always a quite interesting caster, despite the naysayers (that probably have only Haley2 as definition of "viable"). My biggest issue with him is Hordes. Sure, he can play into it, but then he hasn't a feat at all (a couple of POW 14 hit are really meh, expecially when crippling aspects is meaningless due to hordes caster healing), and adding infantry spams to the list that he doesn't like I feel he has a bit too much matchup holes (while, I must admit, playing THead with him alleviates the infantry spam problems, but that is another un-appreciated model and I don't want to derail...). That said, I agree and can confirm that against jack spams he is bonkers. He prolly doesn't want to see infantry spam but he's fine into some amount of infantry. My list has three fireflies, two Stormclads, and you get eleaps from lightning shroud on another jack, usually the Centurion, and while Chain Lightning has been nerfed, it's still a solid spell. I had one game against Bart when my opponent put two eliminators on a flag and feated. So I ran a firefly to the flag, it was knocked down from the feat, then I arc'd chain lightning onto the knocked down Firefly and killed both eliminators. That list had infantry and a colossal and I don't think I lost a single model. The quantity of eleaps mulched guys really well. Do you want to face Cryx or Cephalyx? No. He doesn't want to see 30 dudes. But a unit and some solos? Sure. He's fine into that. It doesn't need to be jack spam for him do well. I made my initial list expecting to make changes eventually but the first list kept winning so I kept playing it. My big problem right now is still Circle. Neither Haley nor Nemo wants to see the Kreuger2/Baldur2 pair. It's the one weak point of my current pairing.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 2, 2017 19:27:38 GMT
I really agree that both Darius and Nemo1 are at least B+ casters and not near the bottom at all... The problem is that tournament lists are generically considered viable starting from A-. I liked them both since beginning of MK3, and I may agree that Nemo1 could be an A- with Heavy Metal (he synergizes very well with it)... On Darius, I dunno. Like I said double colossals isn't a type of list I like, so I didn't tested it, but for sure all other lists with him lost a lot from the new themed environment. I missed this earlier. I guess I wonder what casters are better than than these two. So I made a list I thought sort of covered possible better casters: Stryker1 - The golden boy of Cygnar with a great feat. Runs Heavy Metal or Storm Division super well. Disruption pistol, Earthquake, and three fantastic upkeeps. Stryker2 - Decel, great feat, armor cracking in Positive Charge, personal threat, Rebuke is totally undervalued. Sloan/Caine3 - Both bring a merciless gunline. Nemo3 - Arm buff, great feat, Force Hammer Haley3 - The toolkit of toolkits. I want to make an argument that Darius is better than Nemo3 for one solid reason: Nemo3 can't play into Cygnar and prolly not Circle. Which leaves your Haley2 pairing in a big conundrum. Certainly you don't need to play Haley2 but, I mean, let's be real here. So for my money, I think Nemo3 is worse in a pairing than Darius or Nemo1. Haley3 doesn't have a theme she loves at the moment. I still think she's bonkers great, even out of theme. She's a better caster than Darius or Nemo1, though my win record with her is garbage. Stryker1 is a true baller. He doesn't have a threat range extender for melee jacks or troops but Snipe is a threat extender. He can play into a lot of different builds. He can play into Cygnar and Ret super well, even CoC. So he's a solid bet and a real gem. I think he's about equal in power level to Darius but doesn't have as many bad matchups. At the same, he doesn't have as many "gimmees" as Darius does. Stryker2 - In skilled hands he's a baller. He has a lot of answers but lacks a decent theme at the moment. Sloan/Caine3 - Maybe it's me, I just hate casters that have hard counters in every faction. CoC is a real problem if you're taking Haley2 and either of these casters. Retribution is as well. These casters are super high floor, low ceiling casters. Able to hand you wins against unwary opponents but things get rougher when you face skilled opponents in late rounds. Did I miss anyone? Now that I've typed it out I'd prolly put our top casters as: Haley2 Stryker1 Stryker2 Haley3 Darius Nemo1 I'd be happy to jumble that around a bit, but for two maligned casters who I think are in our top six, that's pretty shocking.
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rantmo
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 8
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Post by rantmo on Aug 2, 2017 19:58:13 GMT
I'm an atypical case, since I play in a dining room "meta" against two of my friends but Nemo 1 is going to get a lot of table time for me because I primarily play against Convergence and in that context his Feat becomes a serious piece of control rather than about the damage. I don't quite have an anti-Convergence list perfected that I could show off to demonstrate, but shorting out Focus induction on feat turn is just glorious.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Aug 2, 2017 19:59:22 GMT
My biggest issue with him is Hordes. As I was reading this thread, I was going to pop in and mention exactly this. I played Kaya1 recently with Nemo, and I got destroyed. I did catch all the beasts in my feat, but a lightning-immune druid smokescreen prevented me from getting fireflies close enough, and shadowpack meant no shooting. Even boosted, those POW14s didn't do much. During that game, I did have an almost-assassination due to Thunderhead getting about 6.5" away from Kaya - I could have gotten the auto-hit boosted pulse followed by two boosted auto-hit shots, but what prevented me was the fact that those damn druids had reach. I got tabled.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 2, 2017 21:01:26 GMT
My biggest issue with him is Hordes. As I was reading this thread, I was going to pop in and mention exactly this. I played Kaya1 recently with Nemo, and I got destroyed. I did catch all the beasts in my feat, but a lightning-immune druid smokescreen prevented me from getting fireflies close enough, and shadowpack meant no shooting. Even boosted, those POW14s didn't do much. During that game, I did have an almost-assassination due to Thunderhead getting about 6.5" away from Kaya - I could have gotten the auto-hit boosted pulse followed by two boosted auto-hit shots, but what prevented me was the fact that those damn druids had reach. I got tabled. What's funny about Lightning Immune Druids is if you can get within 4" of Kaya the eleaps will ignore the Druids, even if they're closer. So you can totally Spark Node your own guys. Your heavies threaten 12"/13" with Nemo. Dynamo threats 13" with shooting and Shadow Pack up. It's not a great matchup but I wouldn't be biting my nails over pKaya.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 2, 2017 23:19:22 GMT
Because it was asked for this is my Nemo1 list:
Nemo1/Electric Jock Strap
[Stockpile]
Nemo -Squire -Firefly -Firefly -Lancer -Dynamo -Stormclad -Centurion Arlan Jr -Firefly Jakes1 -Stormclad
That's the whole of it.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 2, 2017 23:50:45 GMT
Still think that Nemo3 is better than those two, while I agree he has some pair difficulties with Haley2.
That said, if you are going to play double colossals with Darius, I think Stryker1 is still the best choice, and sadly I didn't find a way to build effectively in theme without double colossals.
Nemo1 is good, but again I feel he has quite a bit too much bad matchups. With Hordes you don't just lose the feat, but also Voltaic Snare, making it quite bad (losing both feat and signature spell is bad) versus half of the game, and there is still the issue of infantry spam or Ghost Fleet...
In general, I would prefer pairing Nemo3 with Haley and build Haley for the mirror than taking Nemo1 and be forced to build haley versus all hordes and infantry heavy lists, or simply play Haley2 with Stryker1 or Haley3 in Trencher theme, or Maddox with Storm Division.
Also, Nemo3 isn't really bad in ALL mirror matches. He plays pretty well into Trenchers, and can deal with most Heavy Metal lists at least decently. He is bad versus Storm Division, but even that, he could play a list identical to your Nemo1 list pretty fine. His focus efficiency is about as good as Nemo1's one, and you aren't actually forced to make a FULL lightening list. Nemo3 isn't only his feat, he has good spells and abilities too, and if you are OK with not having a feat with all Hordes factions with Nemo1, not having a feat versus Storm Division isn't particulary different if you didn't skewed too hard toward electric damage.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 3, 2017 2:38:12 GMT
So, is Darius with 2 colossals just a hard question?
Does he have finesse and flexability?
I admit it's a really tough question he asks. "Can you one round 2 Colossals at Arm 21 and 22?"
But it really hinges on that.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 3, 2017 2:38:41 GMT
Still think that Nemo3 is better than those two, while I agree he has some pair difficulties with Haley2. That said, if you are going to play double colossals with Darius, I think Stryker1 is still the best choice, and sadly I didn't find a way to build effectively in theme without double colossals. Nemo1 is good, but again I feel he has quite a bit too much bad matchups. With Hordes you don't just lose the feat, but also Voltaic Snare, making it quite bad (losing both feat and signature spell is bad) versus half of the game, and there is still the issue of infantry spam or Ghost Fleet... In general, I would prefer pairing Nemo3 with Haley and build Haley for the mirror than taking Nemo1 and be forced to build haley versus all hordes and infantry heavy lists, or simply play Haley2 with Stryker1 or Haley3 in Trencher theme, or Maddox with Storm Division. Also, Nemo3 isn't really bad in ALL mirror matches. He plays pretty well into Trenchers, and can deal with most Heavy Metal lists at least decently. He is bad versus Storm Division, but even that, he could play a list identical to your Nemo1 list pretty fine. His focus efficiency is about as good as Nemo1's one, and you aren't actually forced to make a FULL lightening list. Nemo3 isn't only his feat, he has good spells and abilities too, and if you are OK with not having a feat with all Hordes factions with Nemo1, not having a feat versus Storm Division isn't particulary different if you didn't skewed too hard toward electric damage. So, I think you're right that Nemo3 is a better caster than Darius or Nemo1, I just think he's super hard to pair. Both Circle and Cygnar give him fits. I totally disagree that Nemo3 can be played into Cygnar at all. He has zero threat range extenders. He relies way too heavily on his feat. Yes, I'm sure there are lists he can play into but so many things in Cygnar give him fits. Haley2 with a Stormwall feels like an auto-loss. Caine3 out threats him. Stryker2 Storm Division is totally immune. Nemo3's lack of threat extenders into the mirror feel awful, every list making the rounds in Cygnar's tournament scene feels like an auto-loss to Nemo3 in so many ways. Nemo can't handle circle. Ret is questionable depending on the level of stealth (Kaelyssa scares me). Minions. Etc. etc. Is Nemo3 better than Darius or Nemo1? Probably. But right now Cygnar is the boogeyman and playing Nemo3 telegraphs what list you're playing. Haley2 in the mirror feels like she just dies. The gunline casters, Sloan and Caine3, feel like tough roads to hoe for her. I do agree that into Hordes you lose a lot with Nemo1. The feat is a big deal but losing Voltaic Snare into Hordes is....it's really bad. I'd rather lose the feat than Voltaic Snare, it's that big of a deal to Nemo1. Still, he has a threat extender in Locomotion and Decel, as well as a Strength buff. There's no question he loses 2 gears into Hordes but he's still playable if it has to be done. One of the great things about him is almost no one knows what he does and, when you put my list on a sheet, loads of people think he's Nemo3 (!? HA!). I do think there are reasons to play Double Colossal with either Darius or Stryker. One of the reasons I like Darius more is his colossals threat farther and can buy lots of attacks. Stryker's colossals cannot. I know this is simply preference, Stryker also brings Snipe (though Blur is mostly useless). I really think they're about the same when it comes to running double huge bases. Where it matters is when you start to run Stryker, Hurricane, double Strider. Or Stormlances. Or anything else. Stryker opens those lists wide open and Darius does not. For my money, if I'm playing double colossal, I'll take Darius. But Stryker can pull the same hard attrition matchups like Darius can.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 3, 2017 2:51:55 GMT
So, is Darius with 2 colossals just a hard question? Does he have finesse and flexability? I admit it's a really tough question he asks. "Can you one round 2 Colossals at Arm 21 and 22?" But it really hinges on that. Darius with Double Colossals, two chargers, and a Sentinel is flexible. It's a scary gunline. You get like 10 big POW shots every turn. Then, if you survive that, you gotta kill these massive armor buffed, 56 box, monstrosities. It's not finesse. But it is a scary gunline that's also a very credible melee threat. One of the reasons I'm looking at Darius again is the problem Baldur has given me. Baldur puts out an ARM23, 56 box thing every turn. But it only hits at PS19 with a Knockdown. It's been a real problem. But Darius dick kicks the Baldur matchup, I think. He outhreats the Woldwraths by 2". And with a possible 6 jack hammers does 24 damage per turn, while taking 24 in return. Then, once it's dug in, your colossal gets a possible 11 attacks and Darius wins that matchup. Then you have two fully healthy colossals and Baldur has 1. If the Circle player drops K2 he can do almost nothing to you aside from shorten the range of your guns, which Darius doesn't care a ton about. And I think Darius plays into Cygnar and CoC decently. So Darius has answers we're looking for when pairing Haley2.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Aug 3, 2017 3:33:38 GMT
Because it was asked for this is my Nemo1 list: Nemo1/Electric Jock Strap [Stockpile] Nemo -Squire -Firefly -Firefly -Lancer -Dynamo -Stormclad -Centurion Arlan Jr -Firefly Jakes1 -Stormclad That's the whole of it. Thanks for posting. With the changes to scoring in SR17 do you think it would be worth trying to work in a unit of swordknights into the list to score infantry zones? With deceleration and AS they could probably make it across the field but you'd probably have to cut a Stormclad to get them in.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 3, 2017 3:48:57 GMT
Because it was asked for this is my Nemo1 list: Nemo1/Electric Jock Strap [Stockpile] Nemo -Squire -Firefly -Firefly -Lancer -Dynamo -Stormclad -Centurion Arlan Jr -Firefly Jakes1 -Stormclad That's the whole of it. Thanks for posting. With the changes to scoring in SR17 do you think it would be worth trying to work in a unit of swordknights into the list to score infantry zones? With deceleration and AS they could probably make it across the field but you'd probably have to cut a Stormclad to get them in. I honestly don't know. I'm not hot on putting Arcane Shield on them. I frequently put it on Dynamo so he can be ARM23 against shooting and the Centurion can be ARM23. It feels like it leaves Dynamo a little too exposed into the Galleon/ret-colossal matchups. I wouldn't mind taking two min units, that's 16 points, right? But then you lose a free solo and the list doesn't work. I dunno. I think I'd be happy just having all these jacks contest but I have to play a bunch of SR2017 first to really figure it out.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Aug 3, 2017 10:16:36 GMT
Since he has 30 jack points I suppose you could tweak the jacks to make room for a unit of mechanics. You'd technically have a scoring unit and would be able to repair whatever shooting happens to get through deceleration.
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Post by sludgeogre on Aug 3, 2017 16:22:06 GMT
Since he has 30 jack points I suppose you could tweak the jacks to make room for a unit of mechanics. You'd technically have a scoring unit and would be able to repair whatever shooting happens to get through deceleration. I keep thinking about this. I don't like the mechanics from some points of view, because most players tend to not deal with my stuff unless they can one round it, but since they can capture a zone while standing behind a colossal, they might be worth it. Would love to hear from people playing a Darius double colossal list if they feel that the 12" scenario zones are a big enough problem to warrant capturing. It seems like with colossals that are that hard to remove, you can just contest and not ever really worry about scenario pressure, but on some of these scenarios there are just so many points you can score in a turn, sometimes you have to be scoring at least one or two points or you'll lose extremely fast.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 3, 2017 16:42:39 GMT
Since he has 30 jack points I suppose you could tweak the jacks to make room for a unit of mechanics. You'd technically have a scoring unit and would be able to repair whatever shooting happens to get through deceleration. You'd prolly want to trade a Stormclad for a Reliant to make this happen. I don't know how I feel about that. SR2017 is still totally new to me. It's the biggest scenario change I've experienced since I've started playing WMH.
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