spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 27, 2017 8:17:23 GMT
Actually I wonder, if Sanguine Bonds is being buffed, are Bastions going to be included in the CID now? Should they? They absolutely should see CID, because although this is a step in the right direction, they will still die easily and they still lack punch. They don't need to be in the current CID because as droopingpuppy said, this is the Northkin CID, not the Exemplar CID, and I would be annoyed if other factions (beyond Mercs and minions that we can take) were included in our CID.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 27, 2017 12:48:50 GMT
Stealed a signature ability give you an unexpected benefit. It is good to hear, at least. By the way, is Bastions usable without Defender's Ward... or with it? I remember that Trollbloods are struggle with delivering ARM 16+2 Trollkin Champions, but Bastions are weaker than them. Not useable without a buff, though Dward isn't the only one. Inviolable is acceptable as well, Deceleration can get them up front if they're the second line, Martyrdom + VOJ should get the job done most times. Even then, Cinerators end up threatening farther and in the only theme it matters, we have blessed warjacks so upkeeps aren't as much of an issue.
Bastions need a straight up once per game "models in this unit cannot have their last box checked off" minifeat.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 27, 2017 12:52:28 GMT
Sadly, it is much more likely that either mow or Black Fleet (cryx) are next in cid after the Christmas release :/ did they just skip us? Ret - shedload of models, Cygnar - trenchers, Khador - MoW/Crucible guard Cryx - Black Fleet Menoth/Mercenary/Convergence just get to tag along at christmas... will the Revelator even be out before christmas? Anyway hopefully by the time they have addressed eveything else except Menoth, we will have got some more indirect buffs from other factions units. I think the Revelator IS our Christmas release. That and that paladin model.
Get ready for a loooooong haul, boys. we won't see buffs anytime soon.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 27, 2017 14:36:10 GMT
Stealed a signature ability give you an unexpected benefit. It is good to hear, at least. By the way, is Bastions usable without Defender's Ward... or with it? I remember that Trollbloods are struggle with delivering ARM 16+2 Trollkin Champions, but Bastions are weaker than them. Not useable without a buff, though Dward isn't the only one. Inviolable is acceptable as well, Deceleration can get them up front if they're the second line, Martyrdom + VOJ should get the job done most times. Even then, Cinerators end up threatening farther and in the only theme it matters, we have blessed warjacks so upkeeps aren't as much of an issue.
Bastions need a straight up once per game "models in this unit cannot have their last box checked off" minifeat.
Yeah, still they lacks something I think....
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 27, 2017 14:50:57 GMT
Not useable without a buff, though Dward isn't the only one. Inviolable is acceptable as well, Deceleration can get them up front if they're the second line, Martyrdom + VOJ should get the job done most times. Even then, Cinerators end up threatening farther and in the only theme it matters, we have blessed warjacks so upkeeps aren't as much of an issue.
Bastions need a straight up once per game "models in this unit cannot have their last box checked off" minifeat.
Yeah, still they lacks something I think.... I think most heavy infantry is just missing the fact that their armor should be comparable to jack armor. Bastions at arm 17 and cinerators at arm 18 would be plenty to get them on the table.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 27, 2017 14:58:09 GMT
A step in the right direction, but its still not enough to fix bastions. 5 hit points is practically the same as 1 in most situations.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 27, 2017 16:13:47 GMT
Yeah, still they lacks something I think.... I think most heavy infantry is just missing the fact that their armor should be comparable to jack armor. Bastions at arm 17 and cinerators at arm 18 would be plenty to get them on the table. It's not enough because charging POW11 still kill them fairly often. They really need Impervious flesh and then adjust ARM to balance.
Assuming d6=4,2d6=7, 3d6=11 @arm16 they get killed with Impervious flesh on average by: unboosted 17, a standard (good) heavy attack boosted 14, a good boostable gun PS11+3d6, a typical charging weapon master
they are able to shrug off: unboosted 10, typical volume fire ranged attack boosted 12, typical infantry charge attack.
comparatively, current bastions get killed by: POW14+2d6, or good unboosted shooting POW10+3d6 or basic infantry charges
In lieu of Impervious Flesh, maybe a new rule that's a reverse, variation on Burst Fire? Depending on what Bastions should be able to tank, infantry attacks or jack/beast attacks. They could get reduced damage scaling with enemy base size.
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Post by paradox on Jul 27, 2017 16:15:30 GMT
Yeah, still they lacks something I think.... I think most heavy infantry is just missing the fact that their armor should be comparable to jack armor. Bastions at arm 17 and cinerators at arm 18 would be plenty to get them on the table. I like this. 8 wounds presented issues in MKII. We had meat mountain lists for a reason. Same in MKI with cav, leading to them also being 5 wounds, though generally with ARM17+. Same ARM on EE and bastions never sat right with me. Id like to see combos of ARM/wounds open up more. Why lock it at 1/5/8, and rarely 10? BEs have broken the upper end of the mold. So did collosals, really. Open up the mid-field. ARM17 and 6 wounds.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 27, 2017 16:52:27 GMT
A step in the right direction, but its still not enough to fix bastions. 5 hit points is practically the same as 1 in most situations. Patently untrue but don't let hyperbole stand in the way of a good conversation right? Remember ... More is always more.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 27, 2017 16:57:41 GMT
I think most heavy infantry is just missing the fact that their armor should be comparable to jack armor. Bastions at arm 17 and cinerators at arm 18 would be plenty to get them on the table. It's not enough because charging POW11 still kill them fairly often. They really need Impervious flesh and then adjust ARM to balance.
Assuming d6=4,2d6=7, 3d6=11 @arm16 they get killed with Impervious flesh on average by: unboosted 17, a standard (good) heavy attack boosted 14, a good boostable gun PS11+3d6, a typical charging weapon master
they are able to shrug off: unboosted 10, typical volume fire ranged attack boosted 12, typical infantry charge attack.
comparatively, current bastions get killed by: POW14+2d6, or good unboosted shooting POW10+3d6 or basic infantry charges
In lieu of Impervious Flesh, maybe a new rule that's a reverse, variation on Burst Fire? Depending on what Bastions should be able to tank, infantry attacks or jack/beast attacks. They could get reduced damage scaling with enemy base size.
So basically what you're saying is that you won't be happy until heavy infantry are unkillable gods on the table top requiring a colossal to be in range of all 5 of the unit members to kill the unit? I think people really need to temper their expectations when it comes to heavy infantry. MOW see play because they can hit high arm values and have the boxes to survive but they trade that for hitting power which can be compensated for with caster buffs. Bastions and cinnerators trade the high arm and boxes for better offensive capabilities. We have the def buffs to account for that. They are still lacking however beware the MKII warder trap where tweaks end up creating a super unit capable of doing everything. Sanguine bond with unlimited range is ace. Now you can shunt off small amounts of damage that would kill to another member or allow big amounts of damage to simply remove the single member. This is in and of itself a type of health increase. A little bit more armor to improve the amount of damage being transferred around and you've got a really solid package.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 27, 2017 17:11:20 GMT
Mostly we just don't want them to be swiped off the board by average rolls from a single charging steelhead, I think. That feels pretty bad given the relative cost of the models.
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Post by blydz on Jul 27, 2017 17:46:42 GMT
I think we should look in a direction to upgrade our Bastions, not try to compensate their flaws. Every units in Protectorate have flaws that we deal with. That's our thing. Having medium units/models that we can boost into good units/models with support.
Bastion lack of speed, def, that can be boosted. They lack of hit points, and can be martyred or resurected. Plus we have the Bastion Senny who can heal them.
why not looking at something like Call of Defiance, or cleave, or Countercharge ?
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Post by paradox on Jul 27, 2017 17:51:48 GMT
Mostly we just don't want them to be swiped off the board by average rolls from a single charging steelhead, I think. That feels pretty bad given the relative cost of the models. At present, a charging steelhead is effective MAT7 PS11. Bastions are effective DEF13 ARM16 5 wounds. Steelhead needs 6 to hit 10 to kill, assuming SB isnt used. Combined about a 50/50 chance, assuming youre unwilling to use the bond. So really you need at least 2 SHs not using CMA to get an average dice kill.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 27, 2017 17:58:07 GMT
Mostly we just don't want them to be swiped off the board by average rolls from a single charging steelhead, I think. That feels pretty bad given the relative cost of the models. At present, a charging steelhead is effective MAT7 PS11. Bastions are effective DEF13 ARM16 5 wounds. Steelhead needs 6 to hit 10 to kill, assuming SB isnt used. Combined about a 50/50 chance, assuming youre unwilling to use the bond. So really you need at least 2 SHs not using CMA to get an average dice kill. Technically 45.125% chance. FYI.
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Post by paradox on Jul 27, 2017 18:01:47 GMT
At present, a charging steelhead is effective MAT7 PS11. Bastions are effective DEF13 ARM16 5 wounds. Steelhead needs 6 to hit 10 to kill, assuming SB isnt used. Combined about a 50/50 chance, assuming youre unwilling to use the bond. So really you need at least 2 SHs not using CMA to get an average dice kill. Technically 45.125% chance. FYI. Close enough for me to equate spreading 1-2 wounds to force SH to commit separately.
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