thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jul 23, 2017 2:22:48 GMT
The response I received was, in essence, "6 focus isn't enough." The question I tried to ask in return was "what if he has wracks out and is protected enough to play center board?" now your reply x.x Between Reclaimers, Vassals, Choir, Wracks, and a Heirophant, it does work. But unless your battlegroup is a gunline, you will struggle with threat ranges. If you are running a gunline, you will find yourself starved for points.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 23, 2017 5:57:48 GMT
I GOT IT! I know why we aren't seeing eye to eye with Reznik1 !
because I'm used to playing hordes, the way I use my caster is simply different. For us, a single spell with good stats can be all that's necessary to make a caster valid. With me, I'd mainly be passing out Brand of Heresy while saving EoD for assassination runs. Hex Blast is something we use to get rid of nasty upkeeps rather than as an actual killer (we prefer spells like ashes to ashes for that) and use our units to do the dirty work. With Menoth, a jack heavy force can tear through armor, especially with Brand of Heresy lurking about, so ignite isn't really something I see as a spell I'd be using unless under special circumstances. Since Perdition has a cost of 2 and a damage roll of 10, it wouldn't be popularly used in a horde faction since boosting our units or bolstering our defenses with an animus tends to be much more worth it, even if we have the fury to spare. So, at max, I'd probably be casting 2 spells while spreading the rest around for things like Arcane Vortex, which can nullify channeller casters from getting in a quick death. With the wracks to refuel and cost mitigation through things like the Vassals, he should still be able to sit 2 on average, even while forking out the extra for damage control. It really is a difference of use. For a good comparison, look at Xerxis1 or 2. He has 5 fury and all his spells just scream to be casted, yet he generally only uses 2 or 3 fury a turn on them. Instead, he uses fury mitigation tactics to let his beasts run wild in his tiny 10 inch ctrl range.
If you look at the casters that are popular for Menoth, only Amon is a non-spell focused caster. I'll have to see if I can make a Xerxis-like list for him and maybe even solve menoth's singular play style issue as well ^-^
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Post by blydz on Jul 23, 2017 6:17:48 GMT
Reznik lack focus and def buffs. He's like Knights Exemplar, you have to protect him (and his battlegroup) before he make contact and destroy everything. Also he need Pathfinder to do so (Rhupert or Saxon will do).
Witch hound only prevent foes to choose your battlegroup as a target. If it's a caster/lock, he can keep his focus/fury (more resilience) or use it to buff his own models or simply choose another target as your solos or units. And even your battlegroup is the target, spells are still effective. IMO, Witch hound is actually as usefull as Jason Soles hidding Vengers in a Forest waiting for his opponent giving them pathfinder ^^ I think it would be fine if Witch Hound consider magic AND magical attack.
For all his other stuff, it's fine to me. It's fit his role as a witch hunter (and executioner) of the Protectorate.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jul 23, 2017 9:28:51 GMT
I was taking another look through our casters while trying to find an answer to the issue of us only really having 2 choices in lists, armor spam or fire spam. Could you elaborate on the armour spam or fire spam. Do you mean continuous fire? I haven't seen that a lot, only Paradox's thread about Feora1 actually... Unfortunately Reznik is not part of my collection, haven't played him so far. Theory so far: He can do a lot of stuff, but wants to do it all at the same time, which either leaves him without focus or his jacks without focus which kind of defeats the purpose. Maybe this is why you haven't seen him a lot?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 23, 2017 16:49:24 GMT
Our heavies all have 19 arm, some even with shields. Our defensive lines are also pretty pro. Our support can actually one up armor and defense upkeeps by actually nullifying specific types of attacks. No matter what type of list we make it's going to have above average armor by default.
as for fire spam, yes I'm talking about continuous fire, mainly with the feoras and malekus, yet all of our casters can take advantage of burnination; it's an integral part of our mechanics. Several jacks have sprays, critical fire, aoe shots. We even have an infantry unit with auto continuous fire on their blades. It might not be talked about often, but that's more because it's such a given; we even have casters that are specifically built for it afterall.
Warmachine plays slightly different than Hordes: Warmachine plans the game out ahead of time, while Hordes adapts to the situation at hand. Both are good strategies in war, yet it requires slightly different approaches. Warmachine's pre-planning makes focal points a necessity, otherwise you'll overspend and leave yourself defenseless at the end of the turn. Casters that take the "chance" element out of the equation, such as sevvy giving ocular vision or +1 to mat and rat. Durant's true sight is also good for that, but he needs an army filled with boxes to accomplish his tasks. Hordes adaptation phases can be seen in how we openly use fury and then take it away after the fact; if a beast accidentally misses, we'll just use a fury for an extra attack. Because of this, locks that can adapt just as much become a necessity; the more weapons in your arsenal the better. So, for a hordes player, a caster like Reznik would be preferable; we'd be able to pick and choose which strategy to use on what turn instead of depending on a singular powerful element.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Jul 24, 2017 3:23:14 GMT
At the start of the edition, I expected Reznik1 to perform very well within the faction, but found him to be not as powerful as I hoped after 5-10 games for very similar reasons as Thyra. They both are versatile, have unpredictable threat extension (e.g. perdition), and have good personal threat, but they just don't stack up to some of our other casters that are one-dimensional, but more powerful. Warmachine is not a game for the 'master-of-none' warcasters at the moment.
The list of things Reznik1 can do is decent - brand, perdition, bond, feat, EoD, witch hound, ignite, etc. The out of activation movement for the warjacks in particular is a unique asset. However, Reznik1 can't do much without putting himself or an arc node at risk, and the reward for doing so is never enough, unless it's an assassination. It all adds up to a caster that is better on paper than on the table.
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Post by dicebedamned on Jul 24, 2017 12:42:58 GMT
I agree, the Foc of 6 is the key to his troubles. It simply isn't enough focus to fuel what he wants to do each turn (mainly cycle BoH, and or cast Purgation).
Normally in PoM we would solve this with our great jack marshals, but then the jacks are no longer BG, and so do not benefit from BoH/Witch Hunter. Vassels have a similar skorneology; you want to take them to help Reznik's focus load, but once BoH is up, those jacks don't need the focus because they are all boosted anyways... So that leaves you with wracks, and a heirophant for focus stretching (not that these are bad, but it is less options than we usually have).
I would like to see Reznik be able to wrack his own guys (once a turn) for 1 immediate focus. It would be balanced that if he wracked a trooper close to other troopers, and then the opponent shot the wrack, bye bye troopers (Reznik himself rarely cares about wrack explosions). That way we could take zealots or TFG and use them as a mobile focus battery.
All of the above said, some of my most fun games have been with Reznik; getting of a personal assassination with him under EoD is always satisfying, and scourge and Reznik charging things together is movie scene worthy, it is just a shame he is not Focus 7.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 24, 2017 15:42:52 GMT
I agree, the Foc of 6 is the key to his troubles. It simply isn't enough focus to fuel what he wants to do each turn (mainly cycle BoH, and or cast Purgation). Normally in PoM we would solve this with our great jack marshals, but then the jacks are no longer BG, and so do not benefit from BoH/Witch Hunter. Vassels have a similar skorneology; you want to take them to help Reznik's focus load, but once BoH is up, those jacks don't need the focus because they are all boosted anyways... So that leaves you with wracks, and a heirophant for focus stretching (not that these are bad, but it is less options than we usually have). I would like to see Reznik be able to wrack his own guys (once a turn) for 1 immediate focus. It would be balanced that if he wracked a trooper close to other troopers, and then the opponent shot the wrack, bye bye troopers (Reznik himself rarely cares about wrack explosions). That way we could take zealots or TFG and use them as a mobile focus battery. All of the above said, some of my most fun games have been with Reznik; getting of a personal assassination with him under EoD is always satisfying, and scourge and Reznik charging things together is movie scene worthy, it is just a shame he is not Focus 7. You have stated my FOC 6 argument in a way that was eluding me, thank you.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 24, 2017 21:49:25 GMT
I like the way you approached that as well dicebedamned, you didn't just cry "he needs more focus," you actually explained why he is lacking in focus. In essence, it's because he specializes in boosting up his own battlegroup, yet keeping the pile of jacks you want with him would generally require Jack Marshaling. However, jack marshaled beasts do not receive his battlegroup benefits.
This means we either have to cut down his battlegroup or separate the battlegroup into waves... that's tricky. To explain what I'm thinking, once a jack marshal dies, the jack can be picked up by a warcaster or another jack marshal. This means you can keep inactive jacks around just by attaching them to a marshal. Once it's time for that jack to be affected by Reznik's battlegroup buffs, simply kill the marshal and pick him up with Reznik. We have several rather basic and cheep heavies that we could attach to the marshals. Once we start piece trading, we could start replacing the pieces we lose with one of the jacks that are currently under marshal. I wonder if there is a way to not have to kill the marshal to xfer though... think it would work better if we could just have the marshal pick up whatever ones we aren't going to be using that turn instead.
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Post by Manathern on Jul 25, 2017 17:03:04 GMT
I think A Sanctifyer (if you have infantry) and the Hierophant might help Reznik 1 a lot with is focus issues. I would also go with Roven and CO. instead of a Devout.
Reznik -Hieorphant -SoH -Guardian (to ark Perdition/Hexblast) -Sanctifyer -Vigilant
-Vassal of Menoth x2 -Pyrrhus -Wrack x2 -Allegiant of the Order of the Fist
-Choir of Menoth (full) -Temple Flamegaurd (full) + UA (fuel for the sanctifyer and screen) -Roven and Co.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 25, 2017 17:19:21 GMT
I think A Sanctifyer (if you have infantry) and the Hierophant might help Reznik 1 a lot with is focus issues. I would also go with Roven and CO. instead of a Devout. Reznik -Hieorphant -SoH -Guardian (to ark Perdition/Hexblast) -Sanctifyer -Vigilant -Vassal of Menoth x2 -Pyrrhus -Wrack x2 -Allegiant of the Order of the Fist -Choir of Menoth (full) -Temple Flamegaurd (full) + UA (fuel for the sanctifyer and screen) -Roven and Co. I mean like you can definately reduce his focus expenditure. Get a wrack put 2 vassals have the heirophant in take your mandatory choir and put a cheap unit to feed souls to the sanctifier. And he'll be pretty set on focus. The only problem with that is that suddenly you're spending a lot of points on support and that can be a problem in protectorate but all that said i kinds of like this list.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 25, 2017 17:31:17 GMT
I think A Sanctifyer (if you have infantry) and the Hierophant might help Reznik 1 a lot with is focus issues. I would also go with Roven and CO. instead of a Devout. Reznik -Hieorphant -SoH -Guardian (to ark Perdition/Hexblast) -Sanctifyer -Vigilant -Vassal of Menoth x2 -Pyrrhus -Wrack x2 -Allegiant of the Order of the Fist -Choir of Menoth (full) -Temple Flamegaurd (full) + UA (fuel for the sanctifyer and screen) -Roven and Co. Until the current CID, Heirophants were only in the one theme that sanctifiers couldn't fuel themselves in. it's still an issue, though, because Idrians want to be more than soul fodder.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 25, 2017 22:01:18 GMT
Manathern, your list lacks punching power. Imagine it going up against a jack heavy list x.x they sacrifice a heavy or two to take out SoH and the Guardian and suddenly breaking 20 arm jacks becomes a wish. Because of the SoH's Arcane Vortex (any spell cast on a unit within 3 inches can be nulled with the cost of 1 focus), you don't really need a Devout to begin with. With the Vigilant providing cover and girded (18 def, immune to AoEs), you also don't really have to worry about long ranged sniping, especially if you have a screening unit (blocks LoS to combined range attacks). Just make sure to put 2 extra focus on the SoH for the first few turns and you'll have their arc nodes engaged by then. I do believe that the Guardian is a good move, though a templar could be a replacement if you were to put a revenger in for long range arcing. Due to the way he runs, I think I'd want to clear out whatever infantry I could ASAP and then start punching a hole or taking scenario points. If i could, at all, I'd prefer to go with 2 sunburst crews and a full unit of Cinerators (magical weapons) in replace of the sanctifier, pyrrus, and temple flameguard. Even still, having wracks vassals, and mechanics isn't something you can pass up. I'm still working on a paper list. With the current themes, I highly doubt Reznik can run theme and be tournament level successful.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 25, 2017 22:26:55 GMT
I found him to be fun to use at the start of the edition, but the 'jacks I took were too slow (Scourge and Guardian) and he has only that one, unpredictable way of extending threat range. I also found that he wanted all the focus but his 'jacks also wanted all the focus and I found it tricky to balance that during feat turn. Don't get me wrong, he's great at personally murdering things, but I find that my Durst list does more for the jacks and he can murder things almost as well as Reznik.
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Post by blydz on Jul 25, 2017 23:01:16 GMT
There is a paradox with Reznik, because he wants his battlegroup hit by spells for Witch Hound, and you have the SoH to cancel theses spells.
I was thinking about these kind of list for Reznik :
War Room Army
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
High Executioner Servath Reznik - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Scourge of Heresy - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Fire of Salvation - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Revenger - PC: 10 - Vigilant - PC: 9
Saxon Orrik - PC: 4 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 4
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Idrian Skirmishers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide - Chieftain & Guide: 5 Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard - Rhoven, Gius & Cassian: 9
The FoS can benefit from Witch Hound, Perdition, Enlven and Righteous Vengeance. This can be a huge threat. Saxon can be replace by Rhupert if needed. He's only here to give Pathfinder, mainly for Reznik with EoD. Was thinking about include Vilmon and a Paladin, for moving multiple models when Righteous Vengeance is trigger.
Flaws here, like Demonic said, the only punch power are SoH and FoS. Without them, cracking high armor became hardly possible.
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