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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 26, 2017 3:27:31 GMT
Speaking as a sometimes lurker here, I'll miss your input and insights into the Cygnar play style.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 26, 2017 6:20:41 GMT
So, what do we have to fight into Denny 1 ghost fleet (really the only ghost fleet worth considering outside of maybe coven fleet)?
Well, the things that work well ate:
1.Things that can kill Denny.
Shes stealth, she's 16/14 and she has efficient and effective arc nodes and a crippling feat, but there are a couple of casters who are efficient killers who can maybe manage it. Caine 3 comes to mind, it's an exceptionally dangerous game for Caine but he might be able to pull it off. Kara as well with her very long threat range might be able to play some kind of assassination game against Denny.
2. Things that can dig deep and kill Infantry
Its not enough to just kill Infantry otherwise storm lances would have already solved it. You need to be able to kill Infantry which is miles away to prevent the scenario where you commit and kill 85% of Dennys army which then turns around, feats, rips up what you've committed and starts to rebuild the attrition.
Sniped storm strider is a good model for this, it's able to dig pretty deep forward and keep away from a lot of retaliation, especially if you snipe it, shoot, and then move arcane shield onto it to help mitigate some retaliation.
Sniped trencher long gunners may also help, especially since they can get swift Hunter to help dig deeper. This is an expensive infantry piece and the rifles ignore cover which makes this answer less good (although blockhouse can counter some of the casualties with recursion).
3. Magical attacks
Semi necessary for the matchup, you need a way to deal with the wraith engine and ghost pirates. The wraith engine is less necessary as it is unlikely to directly impact the Battle, but ghost pirates can easily turn a game when you aren't prepared for them sprinkle liberally with Arlan to solve most problems. Gravediggers will have a big problem with ghost pirates, though.
4. Rfp.
Cygnar is lacking in rfp which makes the most direct answer to ghost fleets late game mostly out of our reach. Currently the only rfp we have access to is:
-Explosivo (a 1 cost upkeep which makes this answer far less of an answer). -Dust to dust (Kara Sloan's vaunted direct attack spell)
And I think that's it? Not great.
Cygnar is pretty hurt by a well piloted ghost fleet, it's one of the hardest matchups. There are tools here which can give us game but I think the most successful strategy remains to kill Denny and/or kill as much infantry as possible.
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Post by lamoron on Jul 26, 2017 11:07:57 GMT
Connie also has RFP.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 26, 2017 11:37:14 GMT
Aren't there some Merc options? I forget the name of the "Beauty and the Beast" combo unit. I guess Press Gangers only rfp living models?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 26, 2017 12:00:28 GMT
Aren't there some Merc options? I forget the name of the "Beauty and the Beast" combo unit. I guess Press Gangers only rfp living models? Blythe and Bull are the ones you are thinking of, Bull has Takedown on his melee weapon, and yes Shanghai on the Press Gangers is living warrior models only. Besides that there is Alexia 2 with Hellfire, Ragman with Boneshaker, however using them as your sole source of ranged RFP is most likely not enough, they will at most get 1 Leader model before they are killed, and that is relying on an unboosted attack roll to land it, a cagey opponent will hide the leaders or get them concealment or cover until the Rifles or Hellslinger have picked them off, or a venom for Ragman if he has lots of Sac Pawn targets
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 26, 2017 12:15:44 GMT
I forgot about Constance, but honestly she's the worst caster in the faction. Bringing her for an advantage is instantly marred by her overall crumminess. The problem with mercs as RFP options is that if you break theme to bring in these mercs you are playing sans Theme advantages and you are also playing points down. The idea of breaking theme to bring in a mercenary option to try and tech for Ghost Fleet incorporates a bunch of problems of trying to beat a theme with a non theme.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 26, 2017 12:56:47 GMT
Well, yes, but then if mercs are eventually allowed in themes as has been suggested... well, I guess there's no point in considering that right now since it might not even happen.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 26, 2017 13:46:38 GMT
Well, yes, but then if mercs are eventually allowed in themes as has been suggested... well, I guess there's no point in considering that right now since it might not even happen. No point in speculating if PP will fix our problems for us. We should look for playable solutions that are in the game now.
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Post by crow on Jul 27, 2017 2:54:53 GMT
So, um... I have a Connie list that's 3-0 currently. It's even in theme "Storm Division". And her spells are actually SUPER helpful... though granted only played vs legion and ret...
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 27, 2017 3:58:24 GMT
So, um... I have a Connie list that's 3-0 currently. It's even in theme "Storm Division". And her spells are actually SUPER helpful... though granted only played vs legion and ret... Interesting. I don't know about everyone else, but personally I'd love to hear about what the list is and how well it did / how it did well.
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Post by lamoron on Jul 27, 2017 9:57:10 GMT
I've been looking at lists with her for a while now, because Crusader's Call is nice, Repudiate is very nice, and the rest is okay. I think with a few more Morrowan models she would be quite good. What's the list Crow?
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Post by crow on Jul 27, 2017 12:03:30 GMT
I'll start with the list,
Storm Division
Connie -Defender -Stormclad -Galant -Lancer -Squire Journeyman Warcaster -Firefly Stormblades -UA -x3 WA Arlan Strangeways x3 Stormsmith Storm Callers
I usually take the squire free, and the points work out to be 73, so I'm playing a whole 3 points over heh... but I actually end up using Connie as a "spell slinger" of sorts, and the squire is an amazing piece for her. The ability to remove spells is really great and channeling it through the lancer is pretty nice. Not only that but the jacks pretty much power themselves (since most have accumulators) and Arlan gives the defender the extra focus he needs to boost to hit and damage. Feat turn I pop mini feat of stormblades, put arcane shield on them from journeyman, and then watch as my opponent grumbles about how hard they are to kill. I usually put my jacks just behind them, so that if he goes for my men, next turn the jacks can have at her. Plus Gallant is a nice shield guard and second wave jack in the army... I don't know... but there's my two cents.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 27, 2017 14:13:10 GMT
That's ... just ... elegant. This is what I love about warmachine. You can have all of these perceptions about a piece and then somebody comes along with a new way of looking at the tech and turns it on its head.
I'm not currently playing Cygnar as I found them to be a little too tilting for my local opponents but that list is making me want to put Connie on the table now. Do you think the list could stand to lose the defender and callers for a max unit of storm lances or do those pieces give you something essential for the list to function?
Edit: Actually played with it in conflict chamber. Drop the defender, get max storm lances and then the storm callers are free and you hit 75 exactly. So it really is a question of do you need the defender. You can even add in min mechanics
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm Division
(Blaize 1) Constance Blaize, Knight of the Prophet [+30] - Gallant [17] - Lancer [10] - Stormclad [18] - Squire [0(5)]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4] Journeyman Warcaster [4] - Firefly [8] Stormsmith Stormcaller (3) [0(5)] Field Mechaniks (min) [3] Storm Lances (max) [20] Stormblade Infantry [10] - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [5] - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (3) [6]
So less focus load on Connie. More maneuverability for the list, more souls for feat (maybe) and over all higher damage potential.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 27, 2017 14:36:55 GMT
I think there is definitely something to Connie B, Admonition is a pet peeve of mine as I seem to face Fyanna and Doomie 3 a lot when I go to tourneys, so Repudiate is a good counter to that, I love Gallant as well, and she is the only way to get him in theme. If the Merc inclusion in theme happens then she will become more tempting as you can take Harlan Versh in theme with her to power Gallant and boost all his gun shots.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 27, 2017 14:38:00 GMT
I think there is definitely something to Connie B, Admonition is a pet peeve of mine as I seem to face Fyanna and Doomie 3 a lot when I go to tourneys, so Repudiate is a good counter to that, I love Gallant as well, and she is the only way to get him in theme. If the Merc inclusion in theme happens then she will become more tempting as you can take Harlan Versh in theme with her to power Gallant and boost all his gun shots. If you play a little bit aggressive with Connie she already powers Gallant making Versh redundant in that capacity.
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