dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Aug 10, 2017 11:25:46 GMT
It wont be a problem. PP has said that they will have a Theme list out for every single model in the game by the end of the year. This means the Dawnguard Theme will be hitting CID pretty soon I would think. These two jacks being released are completely unrelated to theme lists. They did - but they also warned us that these Themes will most likely be released without going through CID due to time limitations (per the Insider), so we will get the CID for them when whey were originally supposed to be released (which might be a while). Still, I'll be happy to have a theme for every model even if it doesn't go through full CID before release. The Christmas releases, on the other hand, should go through CID, so we should see the Vyre Lights in a couple of months. And, now that we revived the thread anyway, I'm super hyped for our Vyre Lights with the AFG and Ghyrrshyld - or maybe Helynna!
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 10, 2017 11:38:31 GMT
I think the themes all being dropped before CID can be good and bad. On the good side they'll get plenty of feedback when they do enter CID due to the volume of games people will have played. On the bad side they could possibly nerf a theme that is deemed "too strong". I know they said they're going to examine older themes that arent very popular, im curious to see if something like ghost fleet would ever be run through CID.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Aug 13, 2017 21:13:07 GMT
I think the themes all being dropped before CID can be good and bad. On the good side they'll get plenty of feedback when they do enter CID due to the volume of games people will have played. On the bad side they could possibly nerf a theme that is deemed "too strong". I know they said they're going to examine older themes that arent very popular, im curious to see if something like ghost fleet would ever be run through CID. Ghost fleet isn't the problem. Ghost fleet plus Denny1 is the problem. 1 caster interaction. I doubt they would have significantly altered the theme for that alone.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 14, 2017 0:23:16 GMT
I think the themes all being dropped before CID can be good and bad. On the good side they'll get plenty of feedback when they do enter CID due to the volume of games people will have played. On the bad side they could possibly nerf a theme that is deemed "too strong". I know they said they're going to examine older themes that arent very popular, im curious to see if something like ghost fleet would ever be run through CID. Ghost fleet isn't the problem. Ghost fleet plus Denny1 is the problem. 1 caster interaction. I doubt they would have significantly altered the theme for that alone. I watched someone win on top of 2 twice today with Gorshade3 ghost fleet. There's a lot of people playing terminus with ghost fleet with success... It's not just denny1.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Aug 14, 2017 0:47:53 GMT
A competitive list doesn't mean broken. If you have a good list you'll win. That's not a bad thing, nor something that should be punished.
The point I was objecting to was your belief that because GF came out before CID its (supposed) brokenness wasn't caught and fixed. As a theme it's fine. In the same way Creators Might or Blindwater Congregation is fine. Its interaction with Denny1 is the problem. In the same way Oracles of Annihilation is a problem interaction with Fyanna2. Not in the way that Heavy Metal is a problem.
Anywho, I'm excited for the new Ret lights. I traditionally don't like how Ret lights look, but line art has me optimistic for these.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 14, 2017 2:57:24 GMT
Vyre lights, from the drawings we have seen, are gonna be awesome. Having a jack with flight is gonna be weird, but in a good way. Hopefully house Ellowyur will get some Jacks too in the near future. I wonder what the niche would be on those?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 14, 2017 3:57:37 GMT
Vyre lights, from the drawings we have seen, are gonna be awesome. Having a jack with flight is gonna be weird, but in a good way. Hopefully house Ellowyur will get some Jacks too in the near future. I wonder what the niche would be on those? I wouldn't be too surprised if you have to pay a focus for flight, or if it's a once per game ability. Wild speculation: cost 8, spd 5, 1" pow 14 claw, .5" pow 12 claw, (insert random flight rule), MAT 6 RAT 5 Def 12 Arm 17 22-24 boxes. If that's an accurate description of what they look like I'll be picking up some.
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Post by adakai on Aug 14, 2017 12:49:25 GMT
Lol already thinking about all the possibilities. Ghost walk + flight? Seems good.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Aug 14, 2017 12:51:50 GMT
Lol already thinking about all the possibilities. Ghost walk + flight? Seems good. Oh yeah! Kool-aid man style assassination
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Post by adakai on Aug 14, 2017 13:43:21 GMT
Lol already thinking about all the possibilities. Ghost walk + flight? Seems good. Oh yeah! Kool-aid man style assassination HAHA right? Seems janky enough to work atleast once or twice. Hard to tell anything without the actual stats/cards though xD
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 14, 2017 13:54:12 GMT
Oh yeah! Kool-aid man style assassination HAHA right? Seems janky enough to work atleast once or twice. Hard to tell anything without the actual stats/cards though xD Even with the bare essentials of knowing PS14 1" claw and minimum speed 5... Elara 2 scything touch +feat+ conc power... that's a 11" PS18 flying free charge ignoring free strikes? Problem is at MAT6 it's not gonna hit most casters consistently enough to kill them. I'm hoping to squeeze 2 into a Vyros1 list I'm crafting up. if they're 8 points like rumors have said it's perfect. If they go to 9 points I have to take the Lyss healer out and put a soulless on my Nyss. If they're 10 points... Griffons will outshine them 99% of the time.
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matsif
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
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Post by matsif on Aug 15, 2017 0:55:00 GMT
HAHA right? Seems janky enough to work atleast once or twice. Hard to tell anything without the actual stats/cards though xD Even with the bare essentials of knowing PS14 1" claw and minimum speed 5... Elara 2 scything touch +feat+ conc power... that's a 11" PS18 flying free charge ignoring free strikes? Problem is at MAT6 it's not gonna hit most casters consistently enough to kill them. I'm hoping to squeeze 2 into a Vyros1 list I'm crafting up. if they're 8 points like rumors have said it's perfect. If they go to 9 points I have to take the Lyss healer out and put a soulless on my Nyss. If they're 10 points... Griffons will outshine them 99% of the time. even with only MAT 6 there's a lot of ways to fix that. smack in a Marked for Death for an effective MAT 8, knockdown with a banshee or AFG shot slam (or just kd if large based caster) or a crit from a second harpy or other means if you've got the LOS, etc. plus you can keep Eiryss1 for a phantom seeker shot or a unit of MHSF+UA and minifeat to ignore LOS to finish the caster off if the harpy doesn't get it, if you've got 11" for a charge then you've probably got the 12" for their guns. regardless, there's a lot of fun theorycraft to be had with the harpy, more so than with the siren imo. ROF 2 thunderbolt shots on a flying chassis is gonna be great with a lot of combos. I just doubt it ends up being 8 points by the time it actually releases when comparing against the gorgon, which is the only shyeel light with a gun and comes in at 9 points.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 15, 2017 1:38:27 GMT
Even with the bare essentials of knowing PS14 1" claw and minimum speed 5... Elara 2 scything touch +feat+ conc power... that's a 11" PS18 flying free charge ignoring free strikes? Problem is at MAT6 it's not gonna hit most casters consistently enough to kill them. I'm hoping to squeeze 2 into a Vyros1 list I'm crafting up. if they're 8 points like rumors have said it's perfect. If they go to 9 points I have to take the Lyss healer out and put a soulless on my Nyss. If they're 10 points... Griffons will outshine them 99% of the time. even with only MAT 6 there's a lot of ways to fix that. smack in a Marked for Death for an effective MAT 8, knockdown with a banshee or AFG shot slam (or just kd if large based caster) or a crit from a second harpy or other means if you've got the LOS, etc. plus you can keep Eiryss1 for a phantom seeker shot or a unit of MHSF+UA and minifeat to ignore LOS to finish the caster off if the harpy doesn't get it, if you've got 11" for a charge then you've probably got the 12" for their guns. regardless, there's a lot of fun theorycraft to be had with the harpy, more so than with the siren imo. ROF 2 thunderbolt shots on a flying chassis is gonna be great with a lot of combos. I just doubt it ends up being 8 points by the time it actually releases when comparing against the gorgon, which is the only shyeel light with a gun and comes in at 9 points. The things that have me thinking it will stay at 8 points are: slower than a griffon, 1" main weapon, lower MAT on the charge, lower armor than a griffon, less boxes than a griffon and most importantly... it's vyre. Why that's most important? You won't have a theme where you get free points for spamming them( plus other bonuses like shield guard and stuff). I mean sure, you could spam them, Vyros 2 could bring a handfull instead of griffons... but he'd be doing it out of theme losing shield guards, he'd be down ~15 points in free solos( which are very important in SR17 scenario play), he'd have a shorter threat range than a griffon ( with fleet they can be a 13" fire and forget pathfinder missle that has a lot of boxes to take a beating). Assuming that you have to pay a focus for flight ( to be equivilant to pathfinder of griffon, similar to their fleet ability) at speed 5 your max threat range is 9" with 1 extra POW and 2 lower MAT on charge. So not only do they not threat as far, hit as accurately, and most likely won't be as durrable... you also will be forced to play 15 points down( essentially 2 less of them) to spam them out of theme. Sure, you could spam them in another theme... but not one that gives free solos for every XYZ points of jacks. Is it worth it? Probably not. "but the gun!!" you say. Ok so a Rat 5 ROF 2 thunderbolt gun. Is it a good gun? Yes. Will it have uses? Yes. If you're talking about sheer damage output per point a unit of stormfall archers is 9 points for essentially 4 boosted pow 12s with same( guessing) RAT and same range. Like you said use a banshee or an AFG to hit fix and use a unit of stormfalls for 4 3 dice pow 12s for 9 points and save yourself the focus you'd have to give a harpy to get the 2nd boost. While I really think this jack will be a great toolbox for some lists I think it's going to be a "jack of all trades, master of none" light. In the end if it's 8 points you can have a faster, more accurate, more durable, better to spam griffon, 1 more point for 4 archers, if you're taking 2 of them you might as well pay 17 points for an AFG who is RAT 9 POW 16 RNG 16 slam guns instead of RAT 5 thunderbolts. Will certain casters turn them up to 11? Sure. You'll probably see some play with them with Elara2 and Vyros1 because those 2 can extend their threat range, help their accuracy, and let them trade up ( a harpy under scything touch and conc power with free charge on elara can probably kill a heavy, same for a conc power mobility harpy on Vyros1 feat), the gun will be cute for stuff like Issyria feat to fish for crits in a shadows theme, ossyan could toy with taking some( but point for point AFG, HRT, SFA) will have more output with Ossyan and he typically takes Hypnos/Banshee just to fill up his jack points( so maybe Hypnos, Harpy, Harpy but then you lose out on a 2nd heavy for post feat attrition. POW 20 with conc power banshee with higher armor gonna have more late game board presence than 2 Harpies... plus Ossyan is already focus starved even with Sylys upkeeping 3-4 things a turn and your ROI of a arcanist following a light around is going to be lower than following a Banshee 18+4pts or 8x2+4x2) I really think that with releases like these that you're going to see the design space that theme lists open up. Forges of war restricting this jack lets them tune it up a little higher than equally costed lights because you get incentive for spamming shyeel jacks. If it does go up to 9 points I think it limits them even more than for the reasons I've stated above. If anything I would speculate that it's gun range drops to RNG10. ROF2 thunderbolt is already skornergistic because if you go to max range to shoot and hit... then you can't make a second shot. If you walk up to 9" from your enemy to make sure even if you roll 3" on your first shot and you miss then your 9" away from something you were hoping would be 15" away in a perfect world. Bringing the RNG to 10 means you're gonna have to walk to within 7" to guarantee you get 2 pushes OR you need to move to a position to push 2 things back once, which then ROF2 pow 12 isn't as strong. In a game of threat ranges you REALLY don't want to be getting that close to your enemy. Maybe plop 1 in front of an AFG to thunderbolt stuff that tried to run at it and you get the +2" on your RNG, but again... corner case scenario for a minor neat trick. PP has done more play testing of this than we have and once we get some CID rules to actually be fully informed we will be able to have more discussions on this model and it's strength. With my current speculations I'd be willing to pay 8 for it with 2-3 casters, at 9 points I have to really dig deep and ask myself if it's worth it over a griffon. As for the Gorgon, force lock and kinetic grip don't get as much credit as they deserve.
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matsif
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
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Post by matsif on Aug 24, 2017 13:13:59 GMT
these are supposed to hit CID today right?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 24, 2017 13:15:06 GMT
these are supposed to hit CID today right? Yup. 8pts 9pts
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