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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 11, 2017 7:57:49 GMT
If this change goes ahead there is literally no reason to ever play a vanilla list again. However I have been saying for ages that PP want everyone to play in themes all the time, this change will force the last few stubborn snowflakes to start playing themes!
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 11, 2017 12:36:34 GMT
If this gets through its a flat and heavy handed buff for Cygnar. Hordes have little that cares, Warmachine armies gain a bunch of awesome interactions, Cygnar gets a free flight and pass to Disneyland. Terrible from a balance perspective. There's also a case to be made that Cygnar gets hit hardest by this change due to the omnipresence of Arcane Shield. I think it's somewhere in between. Cygnar has ways of dealing with pesky solos. *zap* *zap* *pew* *pew* Cygnar wouldn't like this guy on the other side, but it will hit other factions much harder.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 12, 2017 1:36:44 GMT
Here's one list idea I retired once SD was released. Now I might have a chance at trying it. Stronger than ever before!
Storm Division Maddox 30* -Brickhouse 18 -Ironclad 12 Squire 0 Junior 0 -Firefly 8 Rhupert 4 Storm Lances 20 Storm Blades 10 -CA 5 -3x WA 6 Sam and Devil Dogs 18 -Murdoch 4
Snipe on Devil Dogs, Dauntless on Lances, AS and Tough/concealment on Blades, Assail on Brickhouse or Ironclad. It could be fun!
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Post by mydnight on Jul 12, 2017 2:07:16 GMT
Lol..."hey we can't bring rangers coz we're storm division!" .. "erm, but why are there nyss hunters with us, sir?"
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 12, 2017 2:40:07 GMT
Lol..."hey we can't bring rangers coz we're storm division!" .. "erm, but why are there nyss hunters with us, sir?" Fluffwise, it's easier to pull together some cash to hire some sellswords than to call up an officer of equal or higher rank to requisition their troops. "Oi, you! Hammer Dwarves! Follow me, we've got dragon spawn to kill!" V.S. "Commander Remington III of the 4th Gun Mage Cavalry Division of Cygnar. I write to you in dire need. My mission requires agility, speed, and precision which can only be provided by such elite troops as your Tempest Blazers. If our nation is to stand, the invading forces of the Skorne Empire must be expelled from our border. Send them with haste, Sir."
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 12, 2017 15:12:00 GMT
Hammer Dwarves and Gun Mages!
Sons of the Tempest pSiege 28* -Triumph 18 -Charger 9 Tempest Blazers 11 ATGM 11 ATGM 11 ATR 4 ATR 4 GMCA 0 GMCA 0 Forge Guard 16 Siege Crawler 18
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Post by Aegis on Jul 12, 2017 15:24:27 GMT
Lol..."hey we can't bring rangers coz we're storm division!" .. "erm, but why are there nyss hunters with us, sir?" Fluffwise, it's easier to pull together some cash to hire some sellswords than to call up an officer of equal or higher rank to requisition their troops. "Oi, you! Hammer Dwarves! Follow me, we've got dragon spawn to kill!" V.S. "Commander Remington III of the 4th Gun Mage Cavalry Division of Cygnar. I write to you in dire need. My mission requires agility, speed, and precision which can only be provided by such elite troops as your Tempest Blazers. If our nation is to stand, the invading forces of the Skorne Empire must be expelled from our border. Send them with haste, Sir." No Phoenix, sorry but I totally disagree on this. Mercs aren't always avalaible, expecially character ones that only Morrow knows where are in a date moment in the Iron Kingdom. And they cost much (and I mean like 10x times) more than regular soldiers. Mercenaries are hired only in the direst times, not regularily. The first choice is always the main army. Hammer Dwarves doesn't just walk around and get hired on the spot usually, they are into Rhulic Enclaves, and you have to go there to sign a mercenary contract for them to come with you. Also, little capitains rarely have the authority to spend the money of the crown freely, nor the authority to grant the payment, so usually mercs don't accept contracts without high ranking officiers being involved (those same high rank officiers who have the authority to order people from other divisions to follow up without needing to get any authorization). Also, the whole concept of tight divisions is artificial and introduced just for the sake of the theme forces. The armies aren't usually like that at all, including Iron Kindoms ones looking at the fluff. Generals aren't stupid. They know that having different tools handy is better than having just one kind of tool, so 99% of the armies, even specialized ones, carry a small number of other type of units around for specialized tasks. Sons of Tempest army actually doesn't exist really in the fluff. Gun Mages are almost always included into other armies for the utility they bring. Making an army just of Gun Mages is not only oscenely expensive (Magelocks cost a lot, and gifted people don't grow on trees), but also a very weird choice since Gun Mages lack the brute force to deal with armored targets. When a group of only made of gun mages is used, it's usually for cover mission, and they often don't count more than 3-5 guys into it (like the Black 13). Open warfare with armies of gun mages is silly. No army starts a march without some Rangers scouting around, as an example. That makes a lot more easily to see a small portion of different faction units into a specialized force (like a small unit of Rangers into a Storm Division army), than finding random mercenaries inside.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 12, 2017 15:33:59 GMT
Fluffwise, it's easier to pull together some cash to hire some sellswords than to call up an officer of equal or higher rank to requisition their troops. "Oi, you! Hammer Dwarves! Follow me, we've got dragon spawn to kill!" V.S. "Commander Remington III of the 4th Gun Mage Cavalry Division of Cygnar. I write to you in dire need. My mission requires agility, speed, and precision which can only be provided by such elite troops as your Tempest Blazers. If our nation is to stand, the invading forces of the Skorne Empire must be expelled from our border. Send them with haste, Sir." No Phoenix, sorry but I totally disagree on this. Mercs aren't always avalaible, expecially character ones that only Morrow knows where are in a date moment in the Iron Kingdom. And they cost much (and I mean like 10x times) more than regular soldiers. Mercenaries are hired only in the direst times, not regularily. The first choice is always the main army. Hammer Dwarves doesn't just walk around and get hired on the spot usually, they are into Rhulic Enclaves, and you have to go there to sign a mercenary contract for them to come with you. Also, little capitains rarely have the authority to spend the money of the crown freely, nor the authority to grant the payment, so usually mercs don't accept contracts without high ranking officiers being involved (those same high rank officiers who have the authority to order people from other divisions to follow up without needing to get any authorization). Also, the whole concept of tight divisions is artificial and introduced just for the sake of the theme forces. The armies aren't usually like that at all, including Iron Kindoms ones looking at the fluff. Generals aren't stupid. They know that having different tools handy is better than having just one kind of tool, so 99% of the armies, even specialized ones, carry a small number of other type of units around for specialized tasks. Sons of Tempest army actually doesn't exist really in the fluff. Gun Mages are almost always included into other armies for the utility they bring. Making an army just of Gun Mages is not only oscenely expensive (Magelocks cost a lot, and gifted people don't grow on trees), but also a very weird choice since Gun Mages lack the brute force to deal with armored targets. When a group of only made of gun mages is used, it's usually for cover mission, and they often don't count more than 3-5 guys into it (like the Black 13). Open warfare with armies of gun mages is silly. No army starts a march without some Rangers scouting around, as an example. That makes a lot more easily to see a small portion of different factions unit into a specialized force (like a small unit of Rangers into a Storm Division army), than finding random mercenaries inside. But there is a major difference between a large, mobilized army in the fluff, and the small scale skirmishes on the table.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 12, 2017 15:41:30 GMT
But there is a major difference between a large, mobilized army in the fluff, and the small scale skirmishes on the table. Maybe, but those skirmishes are still side battles of main battles with large mobilized armies. No warcaster would enter enemy territory with just around 20 mans with him. If a unit of stormblades is there, likely there is an entire army of them few miles away, and the game just reapresent a little portion of the war, the one where the Warcaster is involved. That means that it's still more likely for the warcaster to ask to 5-6 rangers (a unit) between the ones that come with the army to follow him, than to suddely stumbling in some random wandering hammer dwarves making a pic-nic into Thornwood.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 12, 2017 15:46:24 GMT
But there is a major difference between a large, mobilized army in the fluff, and the small scale skirmishes on the table. Maybe, but those skirmishes are still side battles of main battles with large mobilized armies. No warcaster would enter enemy territory with just around 20 mans with him. If a unit of stormblades is there, likely there is an entire army of them few miles away, and the game just reapresent a little portion of the war, the one where the Warcaster is involved. That means that it's still more likely for the warcaster to ask to 5-6 rangers (a unit) between the ones that come with the army to follow him, than to suddely stumbling in some random wandering hammer dwarves making a pic-nic into Thornwood. Would you like it better if each faction has a couple of units that can be in any theme? Like Cygnar can have Rangers in any theme? Khador can have Winterguard Infantry or Widowmakers (I don't know which is more appropriate). They just don't count towards theme bonuses in most themes.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 12, 2017 15:53:49 GMT
Probably would be better, but even then it would be silly for other units. Like I said, Gun Mages as an example were always meant to be a specialized unit that tags along other armies to offer their tool of special abilities. Trenchers are the backbone of ANY cygnar army, since they reapresent (numerically) probably the 80% of the soldiers into the Cygnar army. They are always bought along, at least in some numbers, because they are the ones who usually build accampments or digs trenches if needed. They are also the only source of artillery Cygnar has (and warcasters aren't always present. In the other skirmishes not reapresented on the table, trencher artillery covers the heavy fire usually bringed by the warcaster jacks on the table).
Like I said, and like I have seen many people propose, the best rule would be to just add 1 out of theme selection, between mercenaries and out-of theme faction models. That would make armies more fluffy, and would also give space to models like Gun Mages Capitain Adepts that otherwise will not see any play due to not having a theme force or having a bad one.
Is not that including Taryn la Rovissi in every theme force lists that needs shadowfire breaks themes less than GMCA, so at this point make it fluffy and allow the GMCA itself.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 14, 2017 14:18:08 GMT
Just to say... I'm reading Aftershock right now. The army Stryker is leading in the book is always referenced as the Storm Division, but he has a small number of rangers, trenchers and gun mages with him (and even a Chaplain and around fifty Precursors).
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Post by gobber on Jul 15, 2017 17:10:16 GMT
Trenchers are the backbone of ANY cygnar army, since they reapresent (numerically) probably the 80% of the soldiers into the Cygnar army. In the CID fluff I think they mentioned Longgunners are actually the plurality of the army, followed by trenchers.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 15, 2017 17:34:49 GMT
Trenchers are the backbone of ANY cygnar army, since they reapresent (numerically) probably the 80% of the soldiers into the Cygnar army. In the CID fluff I think they mentioned Longgunners are actually the plurality of the army, followed by trenchers. Yep, but now most Longgunners are Trencher Longgunners. Old Long Gunners are treated as a relic of the past and are no more trained.
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