draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Jul 7, 2017 13:27:47 GMT
In hopes to not derail the overall "Protectorate of Menoth in Mk3" thread, I am starting this thread to discus the pro's and con's of fire... Starting with the issues caused by fire immunity. What if... BIG IF... IF immunity only protected you from your own fire/lightning/cold/ect. I know it wouldn't make sense in the lore, but I hate that fire damage (which PP seems like they want to be a buff) is actually such a detriment/Liability. The threat of Kallus 2 and other fire immune lists take (roughly?) 25% percent of our options off the table. As somebody who came to the Protectorate from Legion, we felt we couldn't bring Kallus 2 due to the existence of fireproof Protectorate lists (and trolls, I didn't forget them). It feels like a sub category in a number of factions that just cancel each other out.
Another problem I see, is that the fire attribute adds nothing to a weapon without another model to buff "fire based" attacks. It does add, as earlier stated, the possibility of an enemy to be flat out immune to it. I am not talking about continuous fire. Just the initial damage type modifier.
To my knowledge, the other damage types are not as prevalent and therefore do not seem to cause the "cancel each other out" issue. Cygnar has almost exclusive rights to lighting as far as I know. Khador holds cold with the exception of a few trolls, and a couple Legion models. Am I missing anything?
I do understand that this game runs on a two list balancing factor. But if fire is your anti infantry list, and the opponent brings fire immune infantry, your going to have a bad day.
What do you guys think? How can PP fix this?
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 7, 2017 15:32:14 GMT
Fire resistance [x] giving x armor vs fire. So cleansers woud have Fire resistance [5] making the arm 19 vs fire. So a pow 12 fire shot has 50% to kill.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 15:58:56 GMT
I don't understand why this is such a big issue. How often do you see complete fire immunity: Khallus and Horgle? In those cases, yes our fire damage won't matter but guess what neither will theirs. If you have that much fire damage in your list then there is a really good chance that your list is also immune to fire.
At that point it becomes a melee brawl and we are well equipped to win that fight. Cleansers have a decent charge attack, all of our fire shooting jacks have great melee potential. The only model that gets truly screwed is the vessel but then it becomes a miracle bot throwing around the support that its supposed to. Also his control range is only 12" so start targeting stuff on the periphery. Its not like the game is any thing close to an auto loss.
For Horgle we're basically turning off his feat vs any of our fire immune heavies which is a really big deal for him. I'll play that matchup any day.
The long and short of it is that fire and fire immunity is fine. It just becomes another interesting element in the game that needs to be accounted for. You also have a second list that should be designed to account for the weaknesses of the first any way. I get that nobody likes being told that their toys don't work but we do it to everybody else on more fronts than just an elemental immunity so play through it.
A couple of other notable fire immunities: - Druids (a unit nobody uses anymore) - the fulcrum (so you now have to engage it in melee instead of using fire shots but in return you turn off its fire gun) - Pyre troll (so scary! Can't even hand out fire immunity with its animus any more.) - I'm sure I'm missing other so call'em out.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 7, 2017 16:26:10 GMT
Assault Kommandoes.
Honestly if Khadoran Casters can deal with Blanket cold immunity (That care about cold immunity), I'm pretty sure that fire is OK.
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Post by paradox on Jul 7, 2017 16:27:01 GMT
Assault Commandos. The Achilles Heel of Menoth.
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Post by paradox on Jul 7, 2017 16:35:24 GMT
Thnings to watch for if you're playing heavily fire-based shooting, or Malekus or a Feora: -Fire-immune casters. The ability to ignore a large swath of your guns and effects does let them play with alot more impunity. This can be any Troll warlock with a pyre troll or Horgle. Kallus2, obviously. Strakov1/2, and Feora/Malekus mirror matches. -Fire-immune heavies. Like Torch, things with Kallus2, and some Menoth matches.
That's where it hurts most. Fire-immune troops are still usually pretty handleable.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 17:10:19 GMT
Even in those cases though its up to the player to bait in models for trading in melee. Our jacks can handle those fights pretty well.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 7, 2017 17:14:58 GMT
Usually elemental damage is only a disadvantage. But it can be mitigated by the fact that some of your own models are also immune to the elemental so you can shoot the elemental attacks without risking damage yours, and there are not much models/methods to afford the immunity to a specific damage type. However it is true that you will have a hard time if your opponent knows your faction before made a list and his faction have a solution for the elemental.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Jul 7, 2017 17:50:06 GMT
This has actually made me far less concerned about running a list with heavy focus on fire. Many points I did not consider. Kallus for instance... Legion beasts are glass. If we don't take to much damage from the initial alpha, we stand a really good chance of winning the slug fest.
Thanks for helping me see some other perspectives!
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 18:14:17 GMT
It's definitely a two sided coin. Check out Paradox's Feeling Out My Feora1 List thread for examples of how to run a fire list. I put a battle report in there against legion where their archangels couldn't shoot me because of fire immunity.
Good times.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 8, 2017 7:48:49 GMT
After so much time with so many PoM models immune to Legion beasts' shooting, they deserve getting some immunity against us as well. It's only fair.
I agree, though, that blanket immunities aren't that interesting as they take away players' choices and maneuvers during the game (like acquiring/presenting proper targets doesn't matter when everthing in one army is immune).
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 8, 2017 15:47:26 GMT
Immunities are fine to exist. But we should also have more ways of buffing fire damage so that it's not a straight up liability, cause you know we are the ''burn the heretics' faction. That's why Horgol and Kallus were such massive slaps in the face. They turn fire into an asset better than Protectorate can.
Hell, I still 100% believe that Kallus's feat was originally Feora3s feat. Look at the fluff text. 2 word swaps and it's a protectorate fluff blurb.
I also think that a limited ability to turn off fire immunity would be a cool ability for something to have. A unique spell that can only be cast once per turn, a feat, etc...
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 8, 2017 16:34:18 GMT
Immunities are fine to exist. But we should also have more ways of buffing fire damage so that it's not a straight up liability, cause you know we are the ''burn the heretics' faction. That's why Horgol and Kallus were such massive slaps in the face. They turn fire into an asset better than Protectorate can. Hell, I still 100% believe that Kallus's feat was originally Feora3s feat. Look at the fluff text. 2 word swaps and it's a protectorate fluff blurb. I also think that a limited ability to turn off fire immunity would be a cool ability for something to have. A unique spell that can only be cast once per turn, a feat, etc... Don't forget giving feora 2's passive bond to durgen as a field marshal while making her pay focus for it.... I still think the Purifier needs to be our immunity answer, or if not that, a buff against everything else. Given our general level of available damage, shields are just not enough of a problem to make us take it over a Dervish. PP needs to give it a real niche.
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 18:23:39 GMT
RE other factions that "do fire better." Imagine these are Menoth casters instead. Horgle: Like any Feora or Malekus, he's fire-immune. He lacks any ranged weapon, while all the Feoras and Malekus have one or more. And these ranged attacks are sprays (ignoring most defenses against ranged, including concealment, cover, and shield guards, and intervening models). So by default we are better at range than Horgle already. Melee is a bit more of a toss-up. Horgle is MAT7 PS12 1" reach with fire and chain attack ignition. Feora1 and 2 only have crit fire in melee and no chain attack, though Feora2 has 2" reach and Righteous Flames, and Feora1 has Engine of Destruction, so melees far harder than Horgle. Feora3 has Flame Trail and a mount, and ps14. She's just better. Malekus is worse. But on the whole, it's a risk to melee with any caster. That said, all the Feoras are far, far superior on personal threat and range than Horgle can ever hope for. Horgle DOES hand out immunity to BG, but all of you just told us how useless fire is vs heavies. so this is a mild buff at best, only good if enemy have fire-based shooting. Free charges are good, but you need a pyre, Horgle's spells, or a unit to cause those fires first. Im confident that if we had this ability, say on Feora2 or 3 (in fact we do with HoJ) we'd hear complaints about Skornergy of having to cause fire first. Feel free to deny it though. On the ability front, Feora2's Caustic Presence allows her to hang and 15/19 in the mid-field and build fires that wont go put, so that she can guarantee 7-10 fires pretty easily when she feats. Transfering fires also lets her auto setup free HoJ charges, or snipe key support, while establishing a large camp, or assassinating from 14" out. You really need to evaluate that vs free charges in BG from a really limited fire-causing selection. Malekus has Ashen Veil, so enemies require fire-immunity to bypass this. Mild but a solid ability. On spells, Horgle is fury6 and has Fire-starter or a nuke that costs half his fury. So many people have complained about Scourge, where Malekus easily has access to effectively 9 focus that Ill be entertained by arguments that Consuming Flames would be good. . Feora2 also has Fire Starter. Feora1 has Wall of Fire and Blazing Effigy, as well as Ignite. She has Immolate, but the other 3 are some of the best fire-based spells in the game. HoJ only makes it better, with pow15 BE and POW14 wall of fire. Feora2 equate Consuming Flame with Cleansing Fire. Both have Firestarter. But Fire Step makes her spell list superior in the sense of "doing fire better." Feora3 reall has no fire spells, beyond fire-step. Similarly, Malekus has Ignite and Immolate, so not exciting for fire. Really, all Horgle has is a feat. It's good, but requires: a, that enemy models be in his 12" CTRL. And b, they be set on fire. So you get pigeon holed on Horgle's builds. If you satisfy both conditions, it's a great feat. But it was written in context of a faction with very mild fire themes. Feora1s feat is great vs dudespam and support, and shes more durable than Horgle. Feora2s feat is far more flexible, and enables assassinations, including last-ditch fire rolls if you burned through a camp but did not seal the deal. Feora3s feat spreads fire almost as well as Feora1, and gives a free Incite. Malekus is roughly equivalent, giving an additional die vs double boost, lacking an accuracy buff (though he has Scouge) and allowing more damage output. If you think Horgle "does it better," Id say thats pure grass is greener thinking.
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 18:36:11 GMT
Kallus2 has no ranged attack, and cause no melee based fire himself, outside of Flane Burst. We all know how you guys love that. He's limited to his spell list to cause fire. Brand of Fire, like Consuming Flame, is a shitty nuke that costs half his fury 6 and is about the same as Cleansing Fire. Blazing Path is ok as an upkeep, but only happens in enemy turns. Somewhat comparable to wall of fire. So he doesnt do fire at all at ranged. Hardly at all in melee. Weakly with spells. And his ability only give fire to melee. His feat give nice buffs, but whats causing that fire? He's Skornergy from hell with his FM vs feat, and the rabble here would be salting the earth if a Feora or Malekus got THAT combo. The Angelius, Archangel, and Teraph guns are only crit fire. Theres lots of fire-based guns, but Azreal and Zuriel are the only non-crit fire causing effects. So forces you out of alot of themes. Imagine that wailing. So hes not really doing fire well at all.
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