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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 1, 2017 1:17:26 GMT
I don't think that you need to charge two units of Stormblade Infantry since there is only one Rhupert Carvolo. And, only need for increase the charge range of one more unit is really a reason to take a warcaster? Discard the other advantages to take a warcaster? There are only a few warjacks and warbeasts that have Stealth, and the most of them are really fragile. Sloan, or one or two GMCA would be a solution for Stealth issue. After removing Stealth you can shoot them to death instead as well, without charge. Else with the accuracy buff they can simply dismantle the Slayer chassis solely by their Assault ranged attacks. If about 5 of them are reliably charge the enemy with +2 movement, then it is no wonder that they can make the ranged attack when they make Assault, isn't? I do think that Crusader's Call is a good spell. But, it is too pity if it is the only benefit for a warcaster. We need to have something more, and for our fragile melee options the defensive buff is a mandatory choice to ever think about to use them. And Blaize has nothing. Don't say 'but her feat increases ARM', for in the same time Stryker1 just give them a flat +5 ARM for one turn, and Haley3 gives them +2 DEF all the times. Also Blaize needs our precious but fragile soldiers to be killed by the enemy, but despite the nature of melee combatant that expect for some losses while delivering, they are not so cheap to be throw away like this. Look, I don't know what to tell you. Have you played it, Droopy? I have. And I won't sit here and tell you it's OP, super powerful, please put it in your major con pairing. But it's far, far, far from bad. It's one of those lists that's easy to run, has loads of hard hitting infantry, and is reasonably difficult to deal with. Why two units of Stormblades? Because they threat far? Because their mini-feat can be combined with her feat? Because they threat the 33" line in melee top of two? All of that is good. You get, like, 24 High POW urani that basically won't let you leave your deployment zone. Stormblades run to the 22" top of 1 then threat 11" more. Or threat their deployment zone with guns. Whatever. And don't dismiss that extra 2". It's a big deal. She can feat top of 1 (don't do this) or feat on 2 and her whole army becomes very difficult to remove. What else does she bring? How's a 15/17 stat line with one of the best jacks in faction that also has Shield Guard? How about Crusader's Call which affects her entire army, not just warriors like it did in MKii? How about upkeep removal? How about a MAT9, Blessed Weapon-master? Again, I'm not saying these things are the end-all be-all but they're not bad. Connie isn't terrible, she's not the worst caster in two factions. I think she's prolly better than a handful of casters in Cygnar (Stryker3, Caine2, Nemo2, Sturgis) and is somewhere in the middle of the pack when considering Storm Division. Well, even the most bad model in this game can have its day with the right matchup and the player with good skill. I don't deny that you can do something with her. I just deny that she is good that much and have some competitiveness over the others. It is not possible to completely overshadows every single possible things she can, but there are some ways to get the similar benefit, and she is lacking many things she actually needs. Defensive buff is one of the main problem. Iron Zeal do increase the ARM, but only for one turn. She allows them to charge next turn reliably if they are survives, and with Iron Zeal they do have lower casualty, though, but they can just have much lower casualty with the other feats or spells. Her feat has the more weakness than the others too. Only a solo can do the similar job, although she can only targets a model. But anyway you expect them to be crack armor, isn't? Also, against the units you are not have to make them charge and catch the enemy within the melee range if you have the accuracy buff, because you can opt to shoot instead, but she lacks it too. Also if you really want to strike the enemy fast then you have the guns, and even if you really want to do it by your melee weapons Stryker2 and Brisbane2 gives you more range, along with the other advantage. Indeed Gallant is good, but it is good regardless it is controled by Blaize or not. Her trick to run the Gallant better is inferior to Nemos or even Stryker2. In short, why they should be played with Blaize, despite they are better with the other casters? You may run her and have some models then win the game, and I don't deny that it is possible. But why you wouldn't with the others? You may said for the corner cases, but actually she have the more corner case problems than the others....
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 1, 2017 1:52:35 GMT
In short, why they should be played with Blaize, despite they are better with the other casters? You may run her and have some models then win the game, and I don't deny that it is possible. But why you wouldn't with the others? You may said for the corner cases, but actually she have the more corner case problems than the others.... Right, I mean, I said exactly that in my last paragraph. You can totally play other casters instead and prolly get just as much mileage from them. You know, I've played a lot of casters this year, I'm pushing 80 or 90 games. But you have these casters that people have an opinion of as good or bad and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. I was hesitant on Nemo1, so was the whole of the community, until I found out, "Holy ****, this guy is good. Really, really good." And, likewise, you had people saying Jakes2 was going to be good ("Escort AND Positive Charge?!!!") and it turns out she's pretty bad. Like, prolly near the bottom of the pack. Darius is another one that gets flack, Stryker1 got loads of flack early in MKIII until big names started crushing with him. And all I'm saying is "Connie gets flack for being bad" when she really isn't. She's middling, sure. She's a B-minus caster, sure, but she's not the D-Grade Morrowan everyone always says she is. And that's all I'm saying. She's not terribad, she's totally playable. You could take her to a local event and prolly do fine. Why would you do that? I dunno. Because you want to? We had a guy come into our dojo in MKii with two pig casters and mop up, won a 20+ player event with Markii pigs one of which was Sturm & Drang. So people have the reasons for doing the things they do, who am I to judge?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 1, 2017 2:18:46 GMT
In short, why they should be played with Blaize, despite they are better with the other casters? You may run her and have some models then win the game, and I don't deny that it is possible. But why you wouldn't with the others? You may said for the corner cases, but actually she have the more corner case problems than the others.... Right, I mean, I said exactly that in my last paragraph. You can totally play other casters instead and prolly get just as much mileage from them. You know, I've played a lot of casters this year, I'm pushing 80 or 90 games. But you have these casters that people have an opinion of as good or bad and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. I was hesitant on Nemo1, so was the whole of the community, until I found out, "Holy ****, this guy is good. Really, really good." And, likewise, you had people saying Jakes2 was going to be good ("Escort AND Positive Charge?!!!") and it turns out she's pretty bad. Like, prolly near the bottom of the pack. Darius is another one that gets flack, Stryker1 got loads of flack early in MKIII until big names started crushing with him. And all I'm saying is "Connie gets flack for being bad" when she really isn't. She's middling, sure. She's a B-minus caster, sure, but she's not the D-Grade Morrowan everyone always says she is. And that's all I'm saying. She's not terribad, she's totally playable. You could take her to a local event and prolly do fine. Why would you do that? I dunno. Because you want to? We had a guy come into our dojo in MKii with two pig casters and mop up, won a 20+ player event with Markii pigs one of which was Sturm & Drang. So people have the reasons for doing the things they do, who am I to judge? I still don't think Nemo 1 or Darius are worth playing
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 1, 2017 3:01:27 GMT
Snarlyyow
I tried out Nemo1 recently, and was surprises to find him perform very well.
In your oppinion, who is Cygnar's worst caster now, and why?
I think we're doing pretty well, tbh.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 1, 2017 3:24:30 GMT
Snarlyyow I tried out Nemo1 recently, and was surprises to find him perform very well. In your oppinion, who is Cygnar's worst caster now, and why? I think we're doing pretty well, tbh. I dunno who our worst caster is. Oddly, it's a bunch of casters I don't play. Nemo2, Stryker3, Sturgis, Caine2, Jakes2, and Haley1 are all vying for the bottom tier. Of those I've played Sturgis, Jakes2, and Caine2 in MKiii with regularity. So I'll comment briefly on them and ignore the ones I haven't touched. Sturgis: He still does the things he always did but not being able to charge his own models and teleport going to 6" really hurt him tremendously. On top of that the meta just doesn't have the infantry to really make his feat relevant. He's not a badly designed caster (aside from teleport going to 6") he just doesn't have a place or purpose in the current meta. Jakes2: I've found no other caster more infuriating than Jakes2 in MKiii. I've played 30+ games of Jakes2 THIS YEAR and honest to God almighty I have no idea what PP was thinking, it's why I keep playing her, to try to figure out what they saw. Obviously the Jakes + Finn combo is unreal. But her lack of survivability, lack of a way to fuel a battlegroup, lack to troop buffs, her feat not being a pulse, etc. She's prolly the worst designed caster in Cygnar. She upkeeps both spells, casts positive charge, and fuels a single heavy and she's out of focus. It's crazy how bad she is. Caine2: Oh my God. Poor Caine2. From God mode to nothing, overnight. Magic Bullet being only delivered by himself, and at a cost of a single focus, and onlly being POW10 is sad. Before the nerf he was too strong, able to remove entire units in a single turn all by himself. Now? Now he delivers a couple high RAT POW12s per turn and maybe chucks out a grievious wounds. YAY? His defensive spells are lackluster; Fire For Effect lacks good targets in faction, Heightened Reflexes is a middling defensive spell, and Bullet Dodger is okay but hardly anything to base an army around. His feat is crazy but without Aiyanna it has lost a lot of shine. He's still one of the most powerful single models in the game but he doesn't have any force multipliers at all.
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Post by Mydnight on Aug 1, 2017 3:27:37 GMT
Snarlyyow I tried out Nemo1 recently, and was surprises to find him perform very well. In your oppinion, who is Cygnar's worst caster now, and why? I think we're doing pretty well, tbh. Maybe we could just get a list of the least taken casters to tournaments? Random observations (without factoring in Haley2): Aside from double AS what does Sturgis bring? Stryker1 and even Maddox is just too close a dominant substitute Again, Blaize may not be bottom of the pack, but Styker2/Maddox may be too close a dominant substitute Kraye pre-cid is pretty bad...poor Jakes needs a similar treatment Siege1 is great, but Caine3/Kara may be too close a dominant substitute Nemo1 STILL only works great against jack heavy armies, perhaps even more so after the chain lightning nerf
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Post by Aegis on Aug 1, 2017 8:31:17 GMT
It's since the beginning that I say that Nemo1 and Darius are quite good, as it was Nemo3 even before Storm Division, when people said that he was bad and than suddenly he became a recognized top Cygnar caster when we had access to just a few more points to play.
There are quite a lot of casters/models that have potential, but are disregarded just because some big names don't like them on paper, until another big name decides to play them in a major event and does well with them, then they become great.
I have suggested the Stormblade spam list with Constance pretty much as soon as Storm Division was released, and yes, I found that it could work, but simply there are other casters who play that same list better (Maddox and Siege2 in primis), and that doesn't help when the list is the only one that makes the caster viable.
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Post by Mydnight on Aug 1, 2017 12:00:45 GMT
Caine2 may be okay with trencher theme.
Bring Lynus and Edrea for column choosing + grevious wounds. Gives him the attrition option for feat turn. Or just bring aiyana + holt with murdoch.
Bring rangers.
Anything with tough works well with Heightened Ref.
Trencher mobile team works well with fire for effect.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 1, 2017 12:17:04 GMT
Caine2 may be okay with trencher theme. Bring Lynus and Edrea for column choosing + grevious wounds. Gives him the attrition option for feat turn. Or just bring aiyana + holt with murdoch. Bring rangers. Anything with tough works well with Heightened Ref. Trencher mobile team works well with fire for effect. The Trencher theme can already (assuming end of CID is what will be released) snipe out Spirits and Cortex's and apply grievous wounds, using Trencher Longgunners with the officer and an express team
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 1, 2017 21:27:18 GMT
Caine2 may be okay with trencher theme. Bring Lynus and Edrea for column choosing + grevious wounds. Gives him the attrition option for feat turn. Or just bring aiyana + holt with murdoch. Bring rangers. Anything with tough works well with Heightened Ref. Trencher mobile team works well with fire for effect. This all may be right. But I'd ask what does Caine2 do that a pair of chargers does not? If all Caine is a GW bot, and a couple POW12s, there are other ways to get that in faction. Caine2 does them himself, sure, but he doesn't support an army at all. You can finagle the trick into other lists AND support an army. Why would you choose the former? The fact is Caine2 just doesn't do enough. He can't super solo hard enough, he can't support enough, he doesn't have enough focus. As a stand alone model he's superb, maybe the best single model in the game. But the measuring stick for casters is, sadly, bigger than that.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 1, 2017 21:32:25 GMT
Also Caine in gravediggers has no Reinholdt or squire, making his feat *really bad*
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 1, 2017 21:46:01 GMT
I feel like Caine2 needed to trade a focus to gain a shot type for the rest of the turn. Like, if that had been the case it would be a nerf but he'd still be playable.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 1, 2017 21:50:27 GMT
I feel like Caine2 needed to trade a focus to gain a shot type for the rest of the turn. Like, if that had been the case it would be a nerf but he'd still be playable. Remove that focus all together. Replace grievous wounds with "headshot: models killed may not tough and are removed from play" and trick shot replaced with electro leap. Now players can't complain about grievous ruining their day and they can control were electro leap goes to some extent.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 1, 2017 22:14:34 GMT
I feel like Caine2 needed to trade a focus to gain a shot type for the rest of the turn. Like, if that had been the case it would be a nerf but he'd still be playable. Remove that focus all together. Replace grievous wounds with "headshot: models killed may not tough and are removed from play" and trick shot replaced with electro leap. Now players can't complain about grievous ruining their day and they can control were electro leap goes to some extent. Yes. These two changes would go a long way.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 2, 2017 11:38:30 GMT
In short, why they should be played with Blaize, despite they are better with the other casters? You may run her and have some models then win the game, and I don't deny that it is possible. But why you wouldn't with the others? You may said for the corner cases, but actually she have the more corner case problems than the others.... Right, I mean, I said exactly that in my last paragraph. You can totally play other casters instead and prolly get just as much mileage from them. You know, I've played a lot of casters this year, I'm pushing 80 or 90 games. But you have these casters that people have an opinion of as good or bad and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. I was hesitant on Nemo1, so was the whole of the community, until I found out, "Holy ****, this guy is good. Really, really good." And, likewise, you had people saying Jakes2 was going to be good ("Escort AND Positive Charge?!!!") and it turns out she's pretty bad. Like, prolly near the bottom of the pack. Darius is another one that gets flack, Stryker1 got loads of flack early in MKIII until big names started crushing with him. And all I'm saying is "Connie gets flack for being bad" when she really isn't. She's middling, sure. She's a B-minus caster, sure, but she's not the D-Grade Morrowan everyone always says she is. And that's all I'm saying. She's not terribad, she's totally playable. You could take her to a local event and prolly do fine. Why would you do that? I dunno. Because you want to? We had a guy come into our dojo in MKii with two pig casters and mop up, won a 20+ player event with Markii pigs one of which was Sturm & Drang. So people have the reasons for doing the things they do, who am I to judge? The main problem of her is, she just got the wrong faction. If she is a Protectorate or Skorne warcaster/warlock, then she may have a better place(maybe the tag 'inferior to the others' will not left her, though). But we are Cygnar, have the fragile units - especially for melee stuffs who needs to be durable or capable to withstand against some enemy attack more than the ranged units. Most of our stuffs are have no use with her because they are mainly on the guns, not swords(although you still use them with her), and our melee stuffs primarily needs for the defensive buffs. Think about if Cygnar got some usable unit with her, although they are more suited with the other casters. Only if we have Tharn Ravager with the Morrowan unit then she would rated as a capable or good caster, for example, for they may gain the additional attack and she can boost their damage rolls, as well as able to withstand the enemy attacks while in melee(I don't know about the Circle, but at least we can make it happen). I think that they would works better with Haley3, Stryker2, or even Jakes2, though. Ragman will like them but as you know Blaize can't hire him. Else Cataphract Cetrati would welcome them if she buffs Cataphract instead of Morrowan, for they can boost the damage roll after making Shield Wall then advances. This trick is also possible with Precursor Knights, but as you know their damage output is just sucks because of their RNG 0.5 weapon. What about Praetorian Swordsmen? They can make two attacks, and Blaize's Arcane Might like spell would help them. But, Cygnar have nothing, and I don't think that at least few of them above would be available for Cygnar. It is the most problem that she got the wrong faction. Even the most inferior warcasters are still playable on their own - we just make the non-optimized choice. But how we deal with the warcaster that doesn't suit with us, especially don't care for our stuffs that expected to be supported? Also, as I said I don't deny that you can win the game with her, as we can with many bad models around the game. But it is because of your skills, not the strength of her. You just prove that you can find the way to win even if you picked her, and able to minimize many problems on her while maximize her own corner case benefits. Also I don't deny that there is some local meta that make her useful(I don't think that your local meta is suited for running her well and you will earn the result by your skills, though, but it can happen in somewhere ), but it is not universal and usually it is the minority. Most bad models we can see is either inferior to the other options or only good on the some corner case, and the barrier between two of them are usually ambiguous. Even Stormguard Infantry, the most hatred unit of us, would be useful or great in some meta, but in the most times and meta, they are simply useless or inferior to Stormblade Infantry(or even Silver Line Stormguards, although their power level is similar to Stormguard Infantry) at most, and that's the point why we hate them so much and just call them bad. They can be useful in sometimes, or you may run them with much care, sure, but that's not the point at all... the fact that you need to use them very carefully, or very used to them, in order to use them, already prove that it is your skill what makes you win with them, not their strength. I don't deny that you can't do it, but, you will make much better result with the other choices, and you can't choose your opponent's list - your opponent does.
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