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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 21:47:16 GMT
I'm confused. Is the squire Cygnar's choir, or is Junior? Because I've heard similar arguments for why both of them should be unrestricted. One of them might qualify as a staple on that level, but surely not both. Keep in mind that: - Menoth Jacks have lower than average stats to compensate for the choir - Convergence jacks don't get power up - Trolls have lower stats to compensate for the Krielstone (and pay through the nose in both points and fury for it) - Shifting Stones are very limited in doing anything except fury management and healing. What does Cygnar lose to make up for access to Arcane shield, extra focus, and expanded control area? Junior is more akin to the choir or beast handlers. Why can't both be a staple? Is there a limit? Unlike other commentors I won't say that the difference in power is made up for in the def/arm stat. That's false. But part of it can be seen in the boxes of Cygnar jacks. The heavies have 30 boxes to Khador's 34 and Protectorate's 32. But that's not all. Cygnar has very few damage buffs for melee (there are some, but they're mainly feats). Menoth jacks do lose out on some defense/arm and some p+s. But choir can protect them from shooting/spells, or bump up their damage. Likewise, Cygnar jacks lose out on some boxes, but get access to really good arm for one of them. Well, yes, there is a limit if we're talking about 'faction-defining support pieces' that are integral to the balance of the faction and must not be touched ever, lest the whole Jenga tower of faction balance come crashing down. I've seen the argument be made for both of them, and it seems disingenuous every time I hear it. To be clear, I have no problem with them being powerful and defining pieces, my main issue is with their omnipresence in themes. If we saw Heavy metal sans squire, and Storm Division without junior, I think that would be enough to deal with the issue. As it stands, their being in both of Cygnar's top themes is IMO a huge factor in those themes being everywhere in Cygnar's list pairings.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 21:55:12 GMT
Things like not having a multiwound medium-base unit (or multiwound in general aside from cavlry?). Or having melee infantry without much chances to be delivered without AS? Even Cygnar jacks have less than averange ARM and hit boxes compared with other jacks (yes, with slightly better DEF, but ask a Cryx player, that has even more DEF than Cygnar, if that is good at keeping their jacks alive). But you are right, why should Cygnar have anything good? They don't deserve it, they are filthy blues after all!!!!1111!!!!!11 I. Play. Cygnar. So seriously, cut the 'woe is me, everyone hates Cygnar' crap. I also play other factions, and there is a noticeable power difference when playing Cygnar vs. playing other factions. Every army has similar restrictions on what they do and do not get. Circle doesn't get Heavy Cavalry (or any infantry that can hurt heavies reliably.) Ret doesn't get multi-wound medium infantry. Khador doesn't get lights. None of them translate that into 'therefore, we are entitled to overpowered support piece X!' And Cygnar's infantry is not abnormally difficult to deliver. Some of it is crap, but things like Stormblades (who again, I never see AS on, ever) can be delivered, as can Sword Knights. Blur is in faction, as is deceleration, deflection, etc. If you want 'hard to deliver' infantry, look at Circle. 13/13 wolves, infantry that melts to blasts, or is so slow (with no in-faction speed buffs) that it never gets where it's going. 12 Def is a fairly significant break point for getting hit (look at all the Skorne complaints over Titans getting their defense dropped.) Mat 6 hits Def 12 72% of the time, compared to 91.6 at Def 10. That's non-negligible when you're talking about a beast with 6 or so attacks. It's not as good as Defense 12-13, or 13-14, but it's not nothing. And the reason Cryx complains about it's jacks (specifically slayer-chassis) is because they get shot to death (or crippled - those jacks lose arms so quickly it's not even funny) by highly accurate shooting (mostly coming from Cygnar) and because they lack hitting power when they get there. I don't see many people complaining about the survivability crabjacks (12/18, fewer boxes than an ironclad.) Would they LIKE Arcane shield? yes, of course they would. But unlike cygnar, they don't claim to NEED it to function. Ok, let's play your game. Why Circle deserves Stones? Why Retribution deserves Arcanists? Why Khador deserves cheap and durable Jacks and over averange units? Why Menoth Deserves Choir and all their denial stuff? Why Skorne deserves Paingivers? Why Trolls deserves Krielstones? Why Convergence deserves Corollary and to pass focus between the jacks? Why Legion deserves Shepherds and Slipstream and Eyeless Sight? We can go on ad infinitum. Every faction has his cool mechanics and advantages. They are rooted into the faction and taken in consideration by the developers when models are relased. If you can't see that in Cygnar is your problem. I don't care if you have the faction between the many you play. I have a few mercs lists but it doesn't mean that I understand mercs perfectly. I'm not a player that defends his faction models just for biases, I was between the first to say that Stormlances and Storm Division were stupidly good and should have been dealt with, but coming here saying that Cygnar doesn't deserve some support models like every faction has is just laughable, and if you fail to see that Cygnar has his own drawbacks for what it gets, I don't have the patience to argue with you. Keep up with your crusade and have fun.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 21:55:50 GMT
Junior is more akin to the choir or beast handlers. Why can't both be a staple? Is there a limit? Unlike other commentors I won't say that the difference in power is made up for in the def/arm stat. That's false. But part of it can be seen in the boxes of Cygnar jacks. The heavies have 30 boxes to Khador's 34 and Protectorate's 32. But that's not all. Cygnar has very few damage buffs for melee (there are some, but they're mainly feats). Menoth jacks do lose out on some defense/arm and some p+s. But choir can protect them from shooting/spells, or bump up their damage. Likewise, Cygnar jacks lose out on some boxes, but get access to really good arm for one of them. Well, yes, there is a limit if we're talking about 'faction-defining support pieces' that are integral to the balance of the faction and must not be touched ever, lest the whole Jenga tower of faction balance come crashing down. I've seen the argument be made for both of them, and it seems disingenuous every time I hear it. To be clear, I have no problem with them being powerful and defining pieces, my main issue is with their omnipresence in themes. If we saw Heavy metal sans squire, and Storm Division without junior, I think that would be enough to deal with the issue. As it stands, their being in both of Cygnar's top themes is IMO a huge factor in those themes being everywhere in Cygnar's list pairings. Neither of them are in Gravediggers. No squire in SotT. They likely won't be in the Morrowan theme (whenever that drops) or the CRS theme (if that ever drops). Removing the squire from Heavy Metal does not make thematic sense (it's basically a tiny warjack) or balance sense (then there would only be 4 solos available in the theme, and they would all be auto include by definition). Access to arcane shield is one of the few things making Storm Blades viable. If they lose access to that, Storm Disision will never see play because you might as well play out of theme at that point.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 22:02:38 GMT
To be clear, I have no problem with them being powerful and defining pieces, my main issue is with their omnipresence in themes. If we saw Heavy metal sans squire, and Storm Division without junior, I think that would be enough to deal with the issue. As it stands, their being in both of Cygnar's top themes is IMO a huge factor in those themes being everywhere in Cygnar's list pairings. Again, Squire and JR are in only half of the Theme forces available to Cygnar... Where is the omnipresence? Aren't maybe the themes in question omnipresent? And if that was the issue, isn't an issue of the difference in viability of the themes, so what has it to do with JR? P.S.: Choir is in every Menoth list and Stone is in every Troll list, but that isn't a problem to you... Why the difference?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 22:03:04 GMT
Well, yes, there is a limit if we're talking about 'faction-defining support pieces' that are integral to the balance of the faction and must not be touched ever, lest the whole Jenga tower of faction balance come crashing down. I've seen the argument be made for both of them, and it seems disingenuous every time I hear it. To be clear, I have no problem with them being powerful and defining pieces, my main issue is with their omnipresence in themes. If we saw Heavy metal sans squire, and Storm Division without junior, I think that would be enough to deal with the issue. As it stands, their being in both of Cygnar's top themes is IMO a huge factor in those themes being everywhere in Cygnar's list pairings. Neither of them are in Gravediggers. No squire in SotT. They likely won't be in the Morrowan theme (whenever that drops) or the CRS theme (if that ever drops). Removing the squire from Heavy Metal does not make thematic sense (it's basically a tiny warjack) or balance sense (then there would only be 4 solos available in the theme, and they would all be auto include by definition). Access to arcane shield is one of the few things making Storm Blades viable. If they lose access to that, Storm Disision will never see play because you might as well play out of theme at that point. As I said earlier, then if the issue is warrior model survivability, why not make AS target warrior model/unit? I never see it get put on Stormblades, it's always on Lances or a Jack. The change wouldn't change Heavy Metal would be more a balance than a thematic change, admittedly, but you ARE forgetting Sword Knights can get their command attachment for free - so it's a strict balance issue. Now, their CA needs some CID - love, but it's not a case of 'no options ever.' Aegis: moving the goalposts much? First, it's 'all the non-Cygnar players are ganging up on my faction,' then when someone identifies themselves as a Cygnar player, it's 'well clearly you're not experienced enough to make a good judgement.' Your argumentation is just laughable at this point. I'm sure you'll find another way to minimize my experience, but I played Cygnar exclusively for well over a year end of Mk2 to beginning of Mk3. I play them less now, because I find them both boring (screw gunlines, seriously) and powerful to an extent that it's often unfun for my opponents. I don't like imposing limits on my own list-building, so I've been playing factions I find to be more of a challenge recently. Doesn't change how I feel about Cygnar, nor my experience with the faction.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 22:04:54 GMT
To be clear, I have no problem with them being powerful and defining pieces, my main issue is with their omnipresence in themes. If we saw Heavy metal sans squire, and Storm Division without junior, I think that would be enough to deal with the issue. As it stands, their being in both of Cygnar's top themes is IMO a huge factor in those themes being everywhere in Cygnar's list pairings. Again, Squire and JR are in only half of the Theme forces available to Cygnar... Where is the omnipresence? Aren't maybe the themes in question omnipresent? And if that was the issue, isn't an issue of the difference in viability of the themes, so what has it to do with JR? P.S.: Choir is in every Menoth list and Stone is in every Troll list, but that isn't a problem to you... Why the difference? As I mentioned, both of those are compensating for real, quantifiable stat differences in Troll units and Menoth Jacks. They are integral to the faction in a way that the Journeyman is not. Cygnar Jacks are NOT underpowered for their cost, their survivability and hitting power is right on curve. Saying they 'need' a buff to perform at par is simply incorrect.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 22:11:29 GMT
Aegis : moving the goalposts much? First, it's 'all the non-Cygnar players are ganging up on my faction,' then when someone identifies themselves as a Cygnar player, it's 'well clearly you're not experienced enough to make a good judgement.' Your argumentation is just laughable at this point. I'm sure you'll find another way to minimize my experience, but I played Cygnar exclusively for well over a year end of Mk2 to beginning of Mk3. I play them less now, because I find them both boring (screw gunlines, seriously) and powerful to an extent that it's often unfun for my opponents. I don't like imposing limits on my own list-building, so I've been playing factions I find to be more of a challenge recently. Doesn't change how I feel about Cygnar, nor my experience with the faction. That making a pool about something when the sample is totally un-even is useless is simple logic... Is like opening a pool about "Does Real Madrid deserve to win next Champions League?" when obviously only a tiny fractions of the voters are Real Madrid supporters. That said, I didn't said you are not experienced enough, I said I totally disagree with you, that's different. You just stated that you dropped Cygnar and dislike the faction now, so you don't seem very unbiased honestly, but that said, even if you were totally unbiased, can't I just disagree with your points if you bring bad ones? (Like saying that SQ&JR are omnipresent when they are only on 2/4 of the themes?)
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 22:13:03 GMT
Again, Squire and JR are in only half of the Theme forces available to Cygnar... Where is the omnipresence? Aren't maybe the themes in question omnipresent? And if that was the issue, isn't an issue of the difference in viability of the themes, so what has it to do with JR? P.S.: Choir is in every Menoth list and Stone is in every Troll list, but that isn't a problem to you... Why the difference? As I mentioned, both of those are compensating for real, quantifiable stat differences in Troll units and Menoth Jacks. They are integral to the faction in a way that the Journeyman is not. Cygnar Jacks are NOT underpowered for their cost, their survivability and hitting power is right on curve. Saying they 'need' a buff to perform at par is simply incorrect. Crusader hits just as hard as an Ironclad. Why does it need access to choir?
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 22:16:02 GMT
As I mentioned, both of those are compensating for real, quantifiable stat differences in Troll units and Menoth Jacks. They are integral to the faction in a way that the Journeyman is not. Cygnar Jacks are NOT underpowered for their cost, their survivability and hitting power is right on curve. Saying they 'need' a buff to perform at par is simply incorrect. Sorry but, who says that? Who says that Troll infantry is fragile enough to deserve Stone but Cygnar's one doesn't deserve AS? Who says that Menoth Jacks are fragile or do less damage enough to deserve defensive and damage buffs but a Cygnar jack doesn't deserve AS? It's just your opinable opinion, and I happen to totally disagree with you... And the Developers of the game (who are not filthy blind spoiled blues...) also do it seems, just to say...
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 22:18:51 GMT
Aegis : moving the goalposts much? First, it's 'all the non-Cygnar players are ganging up on my faction,' then when someone identifies themselves as a Cygnar player, it's 'well clearly you're not experienced enough to make a good judgement.' Your argumentation is just laughable at this point. I'm sure you'll find another way to minimize my experience, but I played Cygnar exclusively for well over a year end of Mk2 to beginning of Mk3. I play them less now, because I find them both boring (screw gunlines, seriously) and powerful to an extent that it's often unfun for my opponents. I don't like imposing limits on my own list-building, so I've been playing factions I find to be more of a challenge recently. Doesn't change how I feel about Cygnar, nor my experience with the faction. That making a pool about something when the sample is totally un-even is useless is simple logic... Is like opening a pool about "Does Real Madrid deserve to win next Champions League?" when obviously only a tiny fractions of the voters are Real Madrid supporters. That said, I didn't said you are not experienced enough, I said I totally disagree with you, that's different. You just stated that you dropped Cygnar and dislike the faction now, so you don't seem very unbiased honestly, but that said, even if you were totally unbiased, can't I just disagree with your points if you bring bad ones? (Like saying that SQ&JR are omnipresent when they are only on 2/4 of the themes?) I said they were omnipresent, not that they were available in all themes. When was the last time you saw sons of the tempest being played in anything other than a 'for funsies' game? Gravediggers is not released, so why is that factoring into your calculations? Both Jr. and the Squire are omnipresent in lists that actually see tournament play. That's the relevant consideration. And I'm not playing Cygnar BECAUSE I don't like how they play right now, and want to see their playstyle shift back to the more combined arms approach they had in Mk2. Stormsmith Dropout: the Crusader is Spd 4, MAT 6, and 10/19 instead of 12/18. Across the board, it's stats are worse than the Ironclad, and the choir brings it up a bit past par (due to having to bring independent, killable support models.) It also doesn't have the utility that the Ironclad brings with Tremor.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 22:24:29 GMT
That making a pool about something when the sample is totally un-even is useless is simple logic... Is like opening a pool about "Does Real Madrid deserve to win next Champions League?" when obviously only a tiny fractions of the voters are Real Madrid supporters. That said, I didn't said you are not experienced enough, I said I totally disagree with you, that's different. You just stated that you dropped Cygnar and dislike the faction now, so you don't seem very unbiased honestly, but that said, even if you were totally unbiased, can't I just disagree with your points if you bring bad ones? (Like saying that SQ&JR are omnipresent when they are only on 2/4 of the themes?) I said they were omnipresent, not that they were available in all themes. When was the last time you saw sons of the tempest being played in anything other than a 'for funsies' game? Gravediggers is not released, so why is that factoring into your calculations? Both Jr. and the Squire are omnipresent in lists that actually see tournament play. That's the relevant consideration. And I'm not playing Cygnar BECAUSE I don't like how they play right now, and want to see their playstyle shift back to the more combined arms approach they had in Mk2. Stormsmith Dropout: the Crusader is Spd 4, MAT 6, and 10/19 instead of 12/18. Across the board, it's stats are worse than the Ironclad, and the choir brings it up a bit past par (due to having to bring independent, killable support models.) It also doesn't have the utility that the Ironclad brings with Tremor. SotT is bad for many reasons. Gravediggers is about to be released, and will see play. It makes no sense to not include it. Crusader v.s. Ironclad It's 2 points cheaper. Junior is a killable support model. The choir also helps its lower defensive stats on the way in. And again you ignore the difference in boxes. The crusader has 2 more than the ironclad.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 26, 2017 22:28:24 GMT
That making a pool about something when the sample is totally un-even is useless is simple logic... Is like opening a pool about "Does Real Madrid deserve to win next Champions League?" when obviously only a tiny fractions of the voters are Real Madrid supporters. That said, I didn't said you are not experienced enough, I said I totally disagree with you, that's different. You just stated that you dropped Cygnar and dislike the faction now, so you don't seem very unbiased honestly, but that said, even if you were totally unbiased, can't I just disagree with your points if you bring bad ones? (Like saying that SQ&JR are omnipresent when they are only on 2/4 of the themes?) I said they were omnipresent, not that they were available in all themes. When was the last time you saw sons of the tempest being played in anything other than a 'for funsies' game? Gravediggers is not released, so why is that factoring into your calculations? Both Jr. and the Squire are omnipresent in lists that actually see tournament play. That's the relevant consideration. And I'm not playing Cygnar BECAUSE I don't like how they play right now, and want to see their playstyle shift back to the more combined arms approach they had in Mk2. Stormsmith Dropout : the Crusader is Spd 4, MAT 6, and 10/19 instead of 12/18. Across the board, it's stats are worse than the Ironclad, and the choir brings it up a bit past par (due to having to bring independent, killable support models.) It also doesn't have the utility that the Ironclad brings with Tremor. Funny, I see Cygnar doing a combined arms build a lot more now than in MK2. Now we have not overpriced jacks and some infantry that actually work (Lances and Blades), so I see a lot more melee in Cygnar now than in the past where Gun Mages + B13 + Stormwall + Haley2/Caine2 were the only options. Also, both Squire and JR got nerfs in the MK2-MK3 transition, but you were fine with them before (when they were even more omnipresent than now), but you are angry now? I'm confused... That without adding that Sloan (that doesn't particullary see much play actually) usually doesn't bring a JR at all, so how could them both be omnipresent in your view?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 26, 2017 22:30:43 GMT
I said they were omnipresent, not that they were available in all themes. When was the last time you saw sons of the tempest being played in anything other than a 'for funsies' game? Gravediggers is not released, so why is that factoring into your calculations? Both Jr. and the Squire are omnipresent in lists that actually see tournament play. That's the relevant consideration. And I'm not playing Cygnar BECAUSE I don't like how they play right now, and want to see their playstyle shift back to the more combined arms approach they had in Mk2. Stormsmith Dropout : the Crusader is Spd 4, MAT 6, and 10/19 instead of 12/18. Across the board, it's stats are worse than the Ironclad, and the choir brings it up a bit past par (due to having to bring independent, killable support models.) It also doesn't have the utility that the Ironclad brings with Tremor. SotT is bad for many reasons. Gravediggers is about to be released, and will see play. It makes no sense to not include it. Crusader v.s. Ironclad It's 2 points cheaper. Junior is a killable support model. The choir also helps its lower defensive stats on the way in. And again you ignore the difference in boxes. The crusader has 2 more than the ironclad. Gravediggers may change between now and release, and we have no idea if it will see tournament play. -2 points cheaper, and significantly lower stats. - Junior casts AS once, then spends the entire game hiding in the bad of the deployment zone, keeping a jack just in his control range. Choir have to be within 3" of their jack to give it the buff, which leaves them much more vulnerable (for instance, they're within E-leap range.) - yes, as I said, the choir helps it overcome it's worse stats, at the cost of being killable/additional tax on their point cost. - 2 boxes is...not nothing. It's also not a huge difference in survivability.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 26, 2017 22:34:56 GMT
Briefly: No. They have exceptionally good stats, abilities, synergies, and costs. They are easily in contest for the top spot in terms of all factions. They have models I wish I could have something half as good as.
Most arguably though, they have meta warping lists...
But right now so does Cryx. The biggest questions I see asked is "What do I do to counter ghost fleet" and "This is my cygnar drop, what pairs with it."
No matter what happens there will always be a top dog. I'm fine with that being Cygnar. Cygnar players need to own up to it and admit they have a lot of innate power.
I would like other factions get attention that they deserve rather than Cygnar getting negative attention. But I also don't want Cygnar to rocket off to the moon in terms of power unchecked. It's a balancing act in more ways than one.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 22:43:25 GMT
SotT is bad for many reasons. Gravediggers is about to be released, and will see play. It makes no sense to not include it. Crusader v.s. Ironclad It's 2 points cheaper. Junior is a killable support model. The choir also helps its lower defensive stats on the way in. And again you ignore the difference in boxes. The crusader has 2 more than the ironclad. Gravediggers may change between now and release, and we have no idea if it will see tournament play. -2 points cheaper, and significantly lower stats. - Junior casts AS once, then spends the entire game hiding in the bad of the deployment zone, keeping a jack just in his control range. Choir have to be within 3" of their jack to give it the buff, which leaves them much more vulnerable (for instance, they're within E-leap range.) - yes, as I said, the choir helps it overcome it's worse stats, at the cost of being killable/additional tax on their point cost. - 2 boxes is...not nothing. It's also not a huge difference in survivability. The jack is cheaper and so is the support. You get 4 choir dudes for the price of 1 junior. They can protect 4 jacks from spells or shooting. Junior can protect 1 model or a unit. (I do run stormblades under Maddox with Arcane shield. It's pretty good.) Krielstone gives +2 arm to everybody in a radius. Junior gives +3 to one model or unit. And the whole "cast arcane shield, then stay in deployment upkeeping it forever" thing has weaknesses as well. It does not work if your opponent can dispel AS. And now that Junior needs to bring a jack, he has to go much closer to enemy lines.
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