blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
|
Post by blakeh1 on Jun 30, 2017 1:18:54 GMT
I'm itching to try a double vessel list with Severius and the creators might them
Sev 1
Blessing of Vengeance
Reckoner
Avatar
Vessel
Vessel
Tristan
|
|
doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
|
Post by doopsie on Jun 30, 2017 1:25:17 GMT
I'm itching to try a double vessel list with Severius and the creators might them Sev 1 Blessing of Vengeance Reckoner Avatar Vessel Vessel Tristan Tristan needs to be controlling a jack. Though you do still have 18 pts (well...14 if you take a min Choir).
|
|
blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
|
Post by blakeh1 on Jun 30, 2017 1:44:52 GMT
Yeah, I haven't decided on his jack yet, I could skip the choir and add a 2nd Reckoner, then I would get 4 free solos (Hierophant, 3 Wracks, Tristan, and Covenant) but I'm not sure it is worth it without the choir, or I could add a cheaper jack and settle for 3 free solos if I add something like the Repenter on Sev and have Tristan run the Reckoner instead. then maybe add in a Vassal of menoth or something. I'd have to work out the points
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 2:06:25 GMT
Wow. This thread devolved somehow.
I don't understand why people think the vessel is a bad support model. It purifies, it heals and it unjams. And as a little bit of gravy it has a decent gun. Like some engines are better damage output but still it is a pretty phenomenal piece. Also like w/e it damages itself. It also happens to be one of the battle engines with most boxes. The TEP shoots like a mother Firetrucker but it only had like what 24-26 boxes.
|
|
doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
|
Post by doopsie on Jun 30, 2017 2:17:12 GMT
Wow. This thread devolved somehow. I don't understand why people think the vessel is a bad support model. It purifies, it heals and it unjams. And as a little bit of gravy it has a decent gun. Like some engines are better damage output but still it is a pretty phenomenal piece. Also like w/e it damages itself. It also happens to be one of the battle engines with most boxes. The TEP shoots like a mother Firetrucker but it only had like what 24-26 boxes. 23 boxes. Had to be a prime number, ya know.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 2:22:35 GMT
Wow. This thread devolved somehow. I don't understand why people think the vessel is a bad support model. It purifies, it heals and it unjams. And as a little bit of gravy it has a decent gun. Like some engines are better damage output but still it is a pretty phenomenal piece. Also like w/e it damages itself. It also happens to be one of the battle engines with most boxes. The TEP shoots like a mother Firetrucker but it only had like what 24-26 boxes. 23 boxes. Had to be a prime number, ya know. Game, set and match.
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Jun 30, 2017 7:26:47 GMT
Wow. This thread devolved somehow. I don't understand why people think the vessel is a bad support model. It purifies, it heals and it unjams. And as a little bit of gravy it has a decent gun. Like some engines are better damage output but still it is a pretty phenomenal piece. Some people can be given a knife going into gunfight and will say "it's well balanced and the blade is sharp, I'll see what I can do with it". Others can be given a tank and still complain it's not nuclear weapons. Guess who will appreciate a solid gun more in this metaphore.
|
|
|
Post by Arch4ngel on Jun 30, 2017 7:29:04 GMT
I'm slightly disappointed with the post-CID Vessel of Judgment. I feel the final state of the gun is markedly worse off than its pre-CID counterpart, in ways that used to make it a really attractive option for our faction. Also, I think that relegating the changes to a side-graded version is a tragic missed opportunity, because if people weren't putting it on the table before, and it takes 2 steps forward and 2 steps back, people still aren't going to put it on the table, and the whole thing was a waste of time. Battle Engines in general suffer the same problem as the Avatar - due to the fact that they are both large chunks of points that don't take full advantage of the support networks you are already spending points on. Both of them have to be a little OP or players are just better served by spending those points on a character jack or a unit of Flame Bringers that do benefit from those buffs without extra costs.
Just as a thought experiment, if the Vessel of Judgment had come out of the CID with all of the buffs it has now, with none of the trade-off nerfs, do you think it would be the best Battle Engine? Would it even crack the top 3?
It's thoroughly playable, but it's less good in the list I was already running it in, and I would be SHOCKED if it's in more than a handful of lists in the next WTC. (Also, due to the point cost, I predict running a pair of them will be judged to be a trap in the fullness of time.)
However:
* I think the heal miracle has really interesting possibilities when paired with the Harbinger or Tristan2 * I'm grateful the point cost didn't go up * It's cool (if silly) that our Battle Engine has more armor than our Colossal * Doors of Judgment is still fantastic, and I'm still running mine with my Vindictus/3x Knights Exemplar list
|
|
|
Post by c0deb1ue on Jun 30, 2017 8:07:13 GMT
Wow. This thread devolved somehow. I don't understand why people think the vessel is a bad support model. It purifies, it heals and it unjams. And as a little bit of gravy it has a decent gun. Like some engines are better damage output but still it is a pretty phenomenal piece. Some people can be given a knife going into gunfight and will say "it's well balanced and the blade is sharp, I'll see what I can do with it". Others can be given a tank and still complain it's not nuclear weapons. Guess who will appreciate a solid gun more in this metaphore. I think it's clear to see that people have different opinions. I'd probably try not to antagonise any further. Plus if you were given a knife to a gunfight, you would be shot before you got close enough to use the knife so it wouldn't matter how sharp it was or how go-getting/positive your attitude was - it's the wrong tool. It's just difference of opinion again, some people think it's a knife in a gunfight and some people think it's a solid gun. No-one thinks it's a tank. I have to agree that the Vessal is reasonably on par with the other engines (when at safe life totals) and has an interesting hybrid style approach. The healing option may be pretty awesome once we work out which lists use it. It does seem odd that we have such a detrimental way of functioning which is potentially a large chunk of your engine per turn and pretty much requires extra points for repairers. I guess the extra life buffers this a little but it doesn't really make up for it having to kill yourself to remain competitive. If a game drags on your engine basically is gimped unless you have the aforementioned repairers. It essentially has a time limit without some sort of healing and it will basically be impossible to use it on par with other engines when it is even half way through it's hit points because now you have to worry about making it too easy to kill. The rest of the engines will just function at full until they die. ThIs is actually a pretty hefty downside because you run it's balance off it basically being at safe high health, or you kill it yourself to keep up with other engines output. I think the flavour win disguises this and potentially a lot of people seem to have very low expectations. Essentially you could think of it being a gun that changes into a knife at some point during your gunfight, which is pretty lame. Menoth needs some boosts and this is a bit of a failed opportunity. Just like lists which spam lots of units, like Amon etc or new double vessels, these lists are not a great way of attracting players. People generally like to be able to buy a spread of units and run a lot of lists as oppose to buying multiple copies of a unit to run one sort of list - I know this won't affect the hardcore.
|
|
martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
|
Post by martini on Jun 30, 2017 8:39:24 GMT
Vessel would be ideal for me if the new miracle would be split into 2 and both be slighty buffed. So heal d3+1 or +2 as one miracle and enemy caster choosing to drop upkeeps ot take d6 or d3+3 dmg as the other. That way my enemy would be given a real choice, right now the d3 dmg is the easy answer.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 11:45:33 GMT
Wow. This thread devolved somehow. I don't understand why people think the vessel is a bad support model. It purifies, it heals and it unjams. And as a little bit of gravy it has a decent gun. Like some engines are better damage output but still it is a pretty phenomenal piece. Some people can be given a knife going into gunfight and will say "it's well balanced and the blade is sharp, I'll see what I can do with it". Others can be given a tank and still complain it's not nuclear weapons. Guess who will appreciate a solid gun more in this metaphore. I'm gonna go grab my knife and stab some peeps
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Jun 30, 2017 12:36:59 GMT
The Testament is my "knife" this edition...people underestimate him so much, until after the first game It's only a pity that he has quite a few bad match-ups I can't drop him into at all.
|
|
blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
|
Post by blakeh1 on Jun 30, 2017 15:07:19 GMT
Some people are looking to run double vessel lists, some still think its a waste of time and all sorts in between
Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Vessel though, it is undeniably better than it was pre CID for the same amount of points
I'd call that a net gain
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Jun 30, 2017 15:23:39 GMT
The Testament is my "knife" this edition...people underestimate him so much, until after the first game It's only a pity that he has quite a few bad match-ups I can't drop him into at all. ToM intrigues me in MKIII, but I have not made it around to him yet. Maybe worth examining if we can approximate his MKII VoJ and KE theme? Like, run him in Exemplar Interdiction
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Jun 30, 2017 15:24:46 GMT
Theme: Exemplar Interdiction Testament of Menoth - WJ: +27 - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18
Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Knights Exemplar Seneschal - PC: 5 Knights Exemplar Seneschal - PC: 5
Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 0 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 0 Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
|
|