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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 19:14:06 GMT
or at least until they make medium infantry non-nukeable instantaneously... it wouldn't be so bad if Bastions or cinerators had decent stats but even with defenders ward they are just ARM 18-19 and way too easy to hit...
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 29, 2017 19:17:00 GMT
Lots of problems would be fixed if medium infantry all went back to 8hp as standard. With the super heavy heavy infantry having 10 HP.
Heavy cav should have 8 HP too.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 19:26:46 GMT
I call it repair aura, because it affects jacks mostly in my games. It is very handy to return crippled systems easily and two VoJ can not only repair twice the damage, but also do it "for free" (on average), because they also repair each other. It is an extremely useful ability. What you are describing is poor game design: This support functions to a decent level if the support has another support to help it... that makes the ability weak, not strong... useful maybe... but not cheap or strong
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Post by paradox on Jun 29, 2017 19:49:00 GMT
This worked well for me in CID.
Grand Scrutator Severius - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Blessing of Vengeance - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15)
Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18 Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Flameguard Cleansers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Flameguard Cleanser Officer - PC: 4 Deliverer Sunburst Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 5 Deliverer Sunburst Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 5
Same with this if you prefer theme.
Theme: The Creator's Might
Grand Scrutator Severius - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Blessing of Vengeance - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Reckoner - PC: 16
Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18 Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18
Wrack (The Creator's Might) - 3 Wracks: 0 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Initiate Tristan Durant - PC: 0 - Reckoner - PC: 16
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 29, 2017 19:52:17 GMT
You do know that the healing effect on bonds works on warjacks and warcasters, right? Yeah if an opponent leaves a jack just alive then this would be excellent but how often is this relevant???. Quite often ? Protectorate jacks are pretty tough, and this ability breathes new life into Vassal's Enliven, as a warjack can more readily accept a hefty free strike if it can have its systems repaired next turn more easily than with a mechanic.
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Post by paradox on Jun 29, 2017 19:59:20 GMT
Yeah if an opponent leaves a jack just alive then this would be excellent but how often is this relevant???. Quite often ? Protectorate jacks are pretty tough, and this ability breathes new life into Vassal's Enliven, as a warjack can more readily accept a hefty free strike if it can have its systems repaired next turn more easily than with a mechanic. WERD. Its not like I suddenly cant keep things alive. I mean, the GOAL has always been "kill shit dead" since 2003. This is not new.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 29, 2017 20:01:16 GMT
Lots of problems would be fixed if medium infantry all went back to 8hp as standard. With the super heavy heavy infantry having 10 HP. I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen. I think that upping their arm would be better. Most medium infantry isn't very good and frankly I wouldn't take the Vessel just to make them better, except possibly under Durst, but I still don't think that is going to give very good returns.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 29, 2017 20:59:39 GMT
Siiiigh. Last week I took the Avatar to see if it was better than SOME were saying on the forums (it was). Looks like I'll be taking the VoJ this week.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 21:35:38 GMT
im going to just ignore two battle engine builds as it's very expensive for the average gamer and again reinforces the point that a single engine isn't enough on it's own.
You won't make new iteration enliven good with 1-3 healz but yes if they don't just kill you dead which is by far the most common occurrence then you may be lucky enough to restart 3 systems or maybe just 1. I've not had any opponents who just left a bunch of half dead jacks on the table to try these shenanigans - we have highly different ideas about often.
And this doesn't change the fact that the engine is on par or worse than a number of the other battle engines with a massive downside and uncompetitive costing/Spd and range.
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Post by paradox on Jun 29, 2017 22:03:55 GMT
im going to just ignore two battle engine builds as it's very expensive for the average gamer and again reinforces the point that a single engine isn't enough on it's own. Translation: "Im going to ignore 2 BE builds because it doesnt fit my narrative. Translation: My eternal pessimism means my default dojo is all models die in two swings, guaranteed. And youll alway have to repair 3 systems. Always. .... nah, too easy. [quoteAnd this doesn't change the fact that the engine is on par or worse than a number of the other battle engines with a massive downside and uncompetitive costing/Spd and range. [/quote] Do you always ignore averages, expected outcomes, objective facts, and rational arguments?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 29, 2017 22:23:40 GMT
I actually find it fairly powerful. It's just flat, and only has anything to do with exemplars because it says so. As for vessel, it stings a bit but I like it. We complained several times about it not feeling very good as a support engine, just a really good gun that occasionally cosplayed a castigator or whatever. They gave us a better version of the lost miracle as the second half of the new healing one and added the much requested out of formation clause to doors. It heals, dispels, gives extra attacks, and lights local fires for our army. Add that to a gun that still measures up, and I think it's still a solid piece. What about the list is powerful? 2" of extra deployment or blessed weapons on the jacks you don't take... Vindictus makes it powerful, with little to no input from the theme and basically is the only person worth running it... And the VoJ does all those above things by killing itself so I feel that it should be better than "solid" as the other engines get all the good stuff without the self-crippling balance Errants are better than people give credit for in this place, and plonking them pissing distance from the zones on deployment, with a turn 2 charge range from some of our best infantry right behind them (I speak, of course, of KE's) is excellent. Even cinerators, should you decide to use them, get places with just a couple more inches. Blessed warjacks, OTOH, make this a perfect theme to run a warjack heavy list if you want, you know, literally any infantry to screen them at all. The points come out close enough that, IMO, your choice with a BG-heavy list is between reposition to keep the support safe or a screen to keep the warjacks safe. Blessed ruins a lot of defensive abilities and makes gunlines in particular quite vicious if you can get line of sight. Hmmmm....I wonder if there are any old, cranky men out there with...idk, some sort of vision...that might help. And yes, vessel sucks for actually being balanced. Maybe. Or not? Look, hate it if you must, but the only reason I don't have one by now is that I hate having to pay for, build, paint, transport, and generally own a huge base model. It can heal Warjacks and Warcasters and feeds very well into box spam attrition because of that. It can grant out of activation attacks to our high MAT weaponmasters. It clears out infantry about as well as a sunburst so we can direct our weaponmasters at the heavier targets. We have much worse things to whine about, and we can bring vessel up again in the exemplar CID if necessary.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 29, 2017 22:24:42 GMT
Siiiigh. Last week I took the Avatar to see if it was better than SOME were saying on the forums (it was). Looks like I'll be taking the VoJ this week. To be honest, so far, it's just one or two guys that say that it's no good and often for the oddest reason. You should still take it though. That gun and (soft) purification on a stick alone make it worthwhile, in my opinion.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 22:35:30 GMT
im going to just ignore two battle engine builds as it's very expensive for the average gamer and again reinforces the point that a single engine isn't enough on it's own. Translation: "Im going to ignore 2 BE builds because it doesnt fit my narrative. Translation: My eternal pessimism means my default dojo is all models die in two swings, guaranteed. And youll alway have to repair 3 systems. Always. .... nah, too easy. [quoteAnd this doesn't change the fact that the engine is on par or worse than a number of the other battle engines with a massive downside and uncompetitive costing/Spd and range. Do you always ignore averages, expected outcomes, objective facts, and rational arguments?[/quote] Your whole comment is too easy... Luckily it contains contains none of what you say I ignore and is frankly hypocritical - your narrative etc... unbounded optimism based on fanboi-ism and just empty bluster... the meta is destroying things completely not leaving half finished stuff around... multiple people have said it, it's not exciting or new. 2 engines is expensive monetarily and if it takes two to make them effective, then one engine is obviously not strong enough... perfectly logical, not pessimistic and clearly the CID ethos was not balanced around doubling all the engines to make them function. But by all means continue with a bunch of empty rhetoric...
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Post by paradox on Jun 29, 2017 22:42:47 GMT
I own abd play two vessels. I post results here, or CID, win or lose. You cant say the same. Call me a fanboi if you like, just as many call me a PP hater. I have lists, games, and results. And objectivity.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 22:50:04 GMT
What about the list is powerful? 2" of extra deployment or blessed weapons on the jacks you don't take... Vindictus makes it powerful, with little to no input from the theme and basically is the only person worth running it... And the VoJ does all those above things by killing itself so I feel that it should be better than "solid" as the other engines get all the good stuff without the self-crippling balance Errants are better than people give credit for in this place, and plonking them pissing distance from the zones on deployment, with a turn 2 charge range from some of our best infantry right behind them (I speak, of course, of KE's) is excellent. Even cinerators, should you decide to use them, get places with just a couple more inches. Blessed warjacks, OTOH, make this a perfect theme to run a warjack heavy list if you want, you know, literally any infantry to screen them at all. The points come out close enough that, IMO, your choice with a BG-heavy list is between reposition to keep the support safe or a screen to keep the warjacks safe. Blessed ruins a lot of defensive abilities and makes gunlines in particular quite vicious if you can get line of sight. Hmmmm....I wonder if there are any old, cranky men out there with...idk, some sort of vision...that might help. And yes, vessel sucks for actually being balanced. Maybe. Or not? Look, hate it if you must, but the only reason I don't have one by now is that I hate having to pay for, build, paint, transport, and generally own a huge base model. It can heal Warjacks and Warcasters and feeds very well into box spam attrition because of that. It can grant out of activation attacks to our high MAT weaponmasters. It clears out infantry about as well as a sunburst so we can direct our weaponmasters at the heavier targets. We have much worse things to whine about, and we can bring vessel up again in the exemplar CID if necessary. The issue with the VoJ is its balanced in terms of its output (just about) but has a massive drawback of damaging itself... you can't ignore that it's equality costs it more than the rest of the engines... and extra points in mechaniks or buying two engines which I feel isn't your chosen plan. Hence why I believe it's output should've been better than a junior storm strider to balance it's drawbacks... everyone just seems to ignore this drawback.... as if it doesn't exist I still have issues with the exemplar interdiction list actually being a more viable jack list - sure it works by why even call it exemplar interdiction.... I'm sure most people wanted a good infantry list with implicit infantry benefits - blessed is just completely random - anyway that has been done to death on another thread.
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