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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jun 24, 2017 15:24:05 GMT
Again devils advocate...
Wolds have free charges from wayfarers (maybe). They have a ton of healing and fury management available. They have damage buffs in bald1, Moh, wurmwood, tannith, bradigus, maybe more? They always have pathfinder.
Also they can trample into position and start chipping away at jacks w geomancy. Or deny charges to nonpathfinder jacks w forest generation or rift geomancy or whatever.
Again I think it just comes down to 16 points is silly for a throwaway beast, but that's the case for warp wolves too. They are way to oexpensive if u just use them to beat face. So then is it a survivable issue?
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jun 24, 2017 15:55:28 GMT
Circle beasts only need 2 things: 1) slight points discount 2) some kind of treath extention (fragile and overcosted beasts can't afford be out-treathed all the time)
We have legionesque statlines and they pretend we bite the alpha all the time. Our terrain manipulation is not good enought to overcome our fragility and point cost problems.
I hope SR 2017 is going to change the way people build lists...
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 24, 2017 18:04:40 GMT
Again devils advocate... Wolds have free charges from wayfarers (maybe). They have a ton of healing and fury management available. They have damage buffs in bald1, Moh, wurmwood, tannith, bradigus, maybe more? They always have pathfinder. Also they can trample into position and start chipping away at jacks w geomancy. Or deny charges to nonpathfinder jacks w forest generation or rift geomancy or whatever. Again I think it just comes down to 16 points is silly for a throwaway beast, but that's the case for warp wolves too. They are way to oexpensive if u just use them to beat face. So then is it a survivable issue? Ok as someone who plays wolds A LOT let me combat some of those points Free charges: Woohoo! Except the 2 casters that run them the best already give them free charges, plus For 17 points I get a pureblood that hits harder than the warden has significabtly better defensive stats (14/17) and has a way better animus and gun. (Wardens gun being a Spell) most other casters prefer and run pureblood a better. DMG buff in casters: Well yes they can hit at Pow 18 with our standard pool but not any higher (blessed can be factored in but is situational) They also have Mat 6 which is bad combined with a pitiful 3 Fury. Really for me that extra Fury means a crippled/dead jack/beast and a fully healthy able to kill you one. Geomancy caps at range 10 putting your easily killed butt in threat range of a lot of things. You chip all you want but your opponent will probably kill it next turn. No it's not a beat Face heavy. It's not a trader, it's supposed to be a supportive durable gun platform that can punch a bit. But it fails to be good at any of this roles due to its unreasonably high points cost. I've played a LOT of games with Wardens I only take them when I'm playing bones (now a fulcrum is a better option for 3 more points) and particularly with Baldur 2 to help dish out roots of earth. There's a Tanith bones list I'm working on that has 2 of them, but I'm really thinking 2 Fulcrum a is better in most every situation. They desperately need a cost decrease or something
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jun 24, 2017 18:42:28 GMT
Yah all good points. Especially the point about the pureblood and the fulcrum. I'm not convinced being 8"/10" away is a terriblbe thing w animus and rift and stranglehold and blocking Los w forest templates, but your points are all well received.
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Post by ispyypsi on Jun 24, 2017 21:25:38 GMT
Give wolds a solo that gives them +2 to attack and or damage and I would not feel bad about taking my wold Wardens. Crusader has a heck of a lot of in faction buffs. Mobility from Amon, Boundless charge from Durst, Assail. Plus lots of damage buffs and Chior. Warden has...some cute healing and Fury management. It needs be able to remove a Heavy to be worth its points. Or provide better utility that a forest that most of the meta can deal with.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 24, 2017 21:43:36 GMT
Yah all good points. Especially the point about the pureblood and the fulcrum. I'm not convinced being 8"/10" away is a terriblbe thing w animus and rift and stranglehold and blocking Los w forest templates, but your points are all well received. Stranglehold is one of those spells that actually makes you consider them though. Still think it's overcosted though and if you don't manage to damage what you shot strabglehold at...well. I think the casters that best utilize Geomancy are in order, Krueger 2, Baldur 1 and 2, Wurmy, and Bradigus. Other casters offensive spells are normally not worth it to take a warden and rift is not a very good spell at all. So many things in the game can either give or have abilities that ignore rough terrain.
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Post by kuririnad on Jun 25, 2017 3:06:33 GMT
I think the dev notes for Circle said that our "faction identity" included terrain generation. We have discussed some that is less than useful, but I am hopeful that future releases add to that idea. PP is clearly experimenting with new model types (hellmouth, bunkhouse) so what if we got a model that was literally a forest. It could have rules for attacking enemies who enter it, provide support abilities for our models while within, and could slowly creep across the board throughout the game.
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Post by ispyypsi on Jun 25, 2017 5:05:44 GMT
I think the dev notes for Circle said that our "faction identity" included terrain generation. We have discussed some that is less than useful, but I am hopeful that future releases add to that idea. PP is clearly experimenting with new model types (hellmouth, bunkhouse) so what if we got a model that was literally a forest. It could have rules for attacking enemies who enter it, provide support abilities for our models while within, and could slowly creep across the board throughout the game. We have that, its called Wurmwood. Lol.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jun 25, 2017 22:19:09 GMT
Other casters offensive spells are normally not worth it to take a warden Lol buddy you are forgetting Mohsar and crevasse! That spell is awesome and his damage buff certainly helps pow 16.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 25, 2017 22:44:06 GMT
Other casters offensive spells are normally not worth it to take a warden Lol buddy you are forgetting Mohsar and crevasse! That spell is awesome and his damage buff certainly helps pow 16. Crevasse is an amazing spell. But I'll take a fulcrum or a pureblood with Mohsar over a warden any day Pretty much anything is better for the points than a warden with Moh from my experience And that's after playing Moh in Bones of orboros I love Crevasse especially with the rise of recursion in the newer themes and releases lateley but particularly with Mohsar I just find the points better spent elsewhere
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Post by jisidro on Jun 26, 2017 14:19:56 GMT
Other casters offensive spells are normally not worth it to take a warden Lol buddy you are forgetting Mohsar and crevasse! That spell is awesome and his damage buff certainly helps pow 16.
Crevasse is RNG 8, it's very good against infantry spams and if you need RFP. Amazing is Stranglehold, Muzzle, Spirit Fangs. etc... I have yet to see the casters with these powerful nukes take wolds (Outside early wurmwood lists with Megalith)...
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 26, 2017 16:53:04 GMT
Lol buddy you are forgetting Mohsar and crevasse! That spell is awesome and his damage buff certainly helps pow 16. Crevasse is an amazing spell. But I'll take a fulcrum or a pureblood with Mohsar over a warden any day Pretty much anything is better for the points than a warden with Moh from my experience And that's after playing Moh in Bones of orboros I love Crevasse especially with the rise of recursion in the newer themes and releases lateley but particularly with Mohsar I just find the points better spent elsewhere May I suggest a different approach then. Use Moh and battle group to primarily clear infantry and design the infantry to deal with heavies. Its a big departure from standard play but may have legs under the wild hunt. I haven't run this myself as I'm on a protectorate kick but flipping the equation may pay dividends ... or not and I'm just that nut you pass by on the street pretending not to see ... THE CHANGE IS JUST FOR A SANDWICH DAMNIT! ... but I digress. Skinwalkers, wolves, reeves and war wolves can actually lay down some serious hurt if they can be delivered and get a damage buff. Curse of Shadows, pillars and mirage all help here. So in building a list I would look to maximize the use of crevasse for infantry / screen clearing to help deliver the wolfsworn. Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Wild Hunt (Mohsar 1) Mohsar the Desertwalker [+27] - Woldwarden [16] - Woldwarden [16] - Woldwyrd [9] - Woldwyrd [9] War Wolf [2] War Wolf [2] War Wolf [2] Reeves of Orboros (max) [16] - Reeve of Orboros Chieftain & Standard [0(4)] Warpborn Skinwalkers (max) [15] - Warpborn Skinwalker Alpha [0(4)] Wolves of Orboros (max) [11] - Wolves of Orboros Chieftain & Standard [4] The wardens can leave a pocket in their forest for Moh to hide in and sling spells into the front lines. The only thing I feel like this is missing are gallows to get CoS up the board. Maybe drop the Reeve UA for 2 of them or rely on sands of fate from wolves to reeves to get spells up field. Ambushing wolves allows for really weird angles of attack from Moh. I also like the wardens here because you can abuse them and they'll just heal it back. Alternate abuse between the two of them and you shouldn't have any problems.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 26, 2017 20:40:11 GMT
streetpizza While I like the look of that list I think my biggest issue is I do not think it can handle some of the more skewed jack spam lists out there. I have considered running Moh in wild hunt but I do not feel the list will attrition very well and it does not hit nearly as hard as I would want it too. Granted I can always make my dedicated gun line drop wurmwood for arm cracking but then the lists start to overlap in some bad match ups (ret being the big one for me) I typically take Baldur 2 as my main list and use mohsar to handle jack skews and beast skews. While I think he has fantastic infantry clearing I don't see me needing to tech a list just to kill dudes in circle who naturally just ahs lots of infantry clearing options. This is also from my perspective of Mohsar being really good into jack lines and beast bricks. I can totally see him as an infantry clearing caster but I think at that point your best off running Bones of Orbors and putting fulcrums on the table over the woldwardens. Wild hunt has a lot of potential with Moh, I do not think he supports skinwalkers enough (they need a caster with an arm buff to function from my experience) but replacing the skinwalkers with another unit of reeves or wolves means more sands targets and you can really tech a list that kills infantry, kind of cracks heavy targets and threats assasination well. Even in your list I feel like 2 Purebloods are a better fit just because the sprays are so good and they can get to some really obnoxious places with tracker and ghostly. The sprays are also better for an assasination run. I haven't played Moh in Wild hunt though, I know it has potential I just don't think wardens are what you want in the list and I feel you will find them underperforming with him outside of Bones of orbors.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jun 27, 2017 3:18:48 GMT
I have been playing the past couple months with Mohsar in Wild Hunt. I really like it, but Macdaddy is exactly right on two points: the way I have it doesn't attrition well at all and it isn't great into jack/beast spam.
A counterpoint to all that is an offlist that covers attrition and shooting assassinations (I'm using Baldur 1 in bones).
Even though the list doesn't attrition well, I'm finding that it doesn't have to (most of the time). It puts on so much assassination pressure and is so good at picking out important pieces that you shouldn't have to grind them down. Although, I just played calaban with the sacral vault parked in front of him and got worn down until I lost.
My list is: Moh (wild hunt) - wild argus - 2x Pureblod - 2x wyrd 2x gallows grove Shifting stones 3x war wolf Reeve hunter 2x full WooS w UA
The reeve hunter and wolves are a little ridiculous, but you could substitute.
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