|
Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 20, 2017 20:33:41 GMT
I think some of you are forgetting there were plenty of things that could be measured in MKii. And those things could easily be used in order to get very accurate measurements.
There were control ranges (for casters and juniors), command ranges, melee ranges, and forest los measurements.
And of course, you could look at the scenario map anytime, and find out the locations and dimensions of zones.
Now, I'm a mathematically gifted fella with very good vision. I did fairly well with the old system, and would have done better had I taken full advantage of these features.
In fact, I could "eyeball" pretty small distances. "That's not 3" or less, that's 3.1"." And there were people in my meta who could do even better.
If a person had good eyesight and made use of the measurement rules fully, they were about as accurate as can be with a 3d tabletop game.
Now, that was with a combination of natural ability and acquired skill. To everyone who worked hard for that skill, congratulations. That's the part that people can control. But the other part is talent, which isn't necessarily bad. There are plenty of talents in this game. If you are naturally bad with numbers, or have a bad memory, or have poor motor skills, then those will be hurdles to overcome. Same for all features of MKii measuring.
But, there are calculators for numbers, the rules can be read at any time, and proxy bases can be placed before moving a model.
Some folks have here stated that the old way had more uncertainty, which is true. But for people with good sight, who knew all the tricks, and were capable of doing "weaponized trigonometry" there was much less uncertainty then for others. For such folks, there was a built in advantage that had nothing to do with strategic ability.
I like premeasuring, because it makes every measurement as certain as desired.
|
|
|
Post by Demeritus on Jun 20, 2017 22:50:23 GMT
Overall I do prefer pre-measuring but there are places where it can be abused (like most rules). While I have seen the people who plan out their turns it (in my experience) isn't too big of a deal and they don't go too far with it. This is one of the areas I feel like mk3 has done better than mk2 because with this, there is no question anymore about is X in range.
|
|
|
Post by GreatBigTree on Jun 21, 2017 1:05:29 GMT
Another benefit of pre-measure is the ability to agree with your opponent before hand, IE. "Before my activation, do you agree that with a 6" move and 14" range, these 8/10 models will be in range to shoot at you after making a full 6" move forward?"
Both opponents can measure before the move, and agree without needing to quibble over fractions of fractions of an inch after the move. Being part of the "Weaponized Trigonometry" set, I too am able to deduce ranges from outside information, even using known points as a radius measurement and mentally rotating the distance. On a 6x4 board, I could pinpoint a "guess-range" artillery shot to hit a standard base size [25mm in 40k, for example]. I was outside that margin of error perhaps 5% of the time. Games simply became quicker and more fun for my opponents that did not have that skill, which made the game better for both of us.
|
|
marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
|
Post by marke on Jun 21, 2017 2:23:04 GMT
I still don't like it. People plan out whole turns and litter the table with proxies, markers etc. Constant measuring and bookkeeping isn't my idea of a good game. The effect markers etc were already annoying in mk2.
I guess SR2017 will help a bit, but I don't see these compromise type of solutions lasting very long.
|
|
|
Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 21, 2017 2:25:05 GMT
I still don't like it. People plan out whole turns and litter the table with proxies, markers etc. Constant measuring and bookkeeping isn't my idea of a good game. The effect markers etc were already annoying in mk2. I guess SR2017 will help a bit, but I don't see these compromise type of solutions lasting very long. Effect markers?
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 21, 2017 2:58:22 GMT
I think he's talking about tokens to represent in game effects. For example i was playing a list the other day and when a model died i had to place down five tokens for various forms of vengefulness (vengeance,battle driven, righteousness vengeance,hand of Vengeance)
Like you can easily get a model that has 5 different effects on it and at that point it gets hard to figure out what the tokens are supposed to represent what.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Jun 21, 2017 3:24:39 GMT
I'm on the same boat as marke. I only use premeasuring to make sure my intended target is in range before I move, so I can react accordingly.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 21, 2017 3:30:04 GMT
I'm on the same boat as marke. I only use premeasuring to make sure my intended target is in range before I move, so I can react accordingly. Often this sort of logic is used as a weapon rather than a preference. I hear a lot of "I only use premeasuring to measure 1 threat range at a time" and then that turns into "And so should everyone else".
|
|
|
Post by Azuresun on Jun 21, 2017 9:13:55 GMT
I think he's talking about tokens to represent in game effects. For example i was playing a list the other day and when a model died i had to place down five tokens for various forms of vengefulness (vengeance,battle driven, righteousness vengeance,hand of Vengeance) Sounds like a 90's comic book: Maximum Vengeance
|
|
|
Post by Tekanan on Jun 22, 2017 11:20:10 GMT
I like pre-measuring! I find it has made the game not only feel more casual, it lowered the entry barrier for new players.
Somehow it also made the game feel more "natural".
|
|
|
Post by claptrap on Jun 22, 2017 18:30:50 GMT
I think he's talking about tokens to represent in game effects. For example i was playing a list the other day and when a model died i had to place down five tokens for various forms of vengefulness (vengeance,battle driven, righteousness vengeance,hand of Vengeance) Like you can easily get a model that has 5 different effects on it and at that point it gets hard to figure out what the tokens are supposed to represent what. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you play Protectorate.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Jun 22, 2017 19:41:52 GMT
I think he's talking about tokens to represent in game effects. For example i was playing a list the other day and when a model died i had to place down five tokens for various forms of vengefulness (vengeance,battle driven, righteousness vengeance,hand of Vengeance) Like you can easily get a model that has 5 different effects on it and at that point it gets hard to figure out what the tokens are supposed to represent what. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you play Protectorate. Congratulations. You win. Your prize is one like.
|
|
marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
|
Post by marke on Jun 23, 2017 5:01:23 GMT
I played Circle mk2 and Kromac2 w druids felt more like a chore than fun. Wolf warps, animi, fury, druid clouds, upkeeps, heart tokens.. and the most effective playstyle was "block". So labour intensive, which I find problematic these days too.. especially with premeasuring. You can currently measure, plan and mark everything then why not do it? Your opponent is doing it. I understand this can be enjoyable with the right attitude, and indeed quite a few people like this type of gameplay. Nothing wrong with that
|
|