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Post by danith00 on Mar 9, 2017 1:43:04 GMT
danith, the thing is quite simple, some people, like you, think that the moves PP are doing are good moves, some other people think that they are bad moves that will have a negative effect. Noone knows who is right. Time will tell. Both opinions are fine and free to be expressed, but clearly this is one of those situations where we can just wait and see what happens, and if someone feels hurt about some of those decision, telling them that they are overeacting is not going to help. Sure. But, people in general are known to overreact. It's human nature now-a-days. PP has a marketing staff for a reason. There is a reason. It may be the WORST reason ever. But, it's their reason ultimately. And I'm sure they aren't going to let their business die for that reason.
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Post by Tekanan on Mar 9, 2017 1:43:10 GMT
Now, if you go to a store and ask about Warmachine, you may find there are people who just aren't interested in helping a newbie learn the ropes, or run into some douchebag who brings out Haley or Butcher for a newbie's first game and crushes them. A PG could have done these things too, but were more inclined to be helpful in growing the community. Most stores I've seen don't want to bother with the community for anything beyond Magic; so volunteers are still needed. Actually I think in these day of age, new players (especially millenials) who take interest in the game would likely seek for more information online. I do get that the experience of having an enthusiast (e.g. PG) to encourage is a different and IMO more effective one though. I think what stores need to do now is to find for these enthusiast and offer good support in delivering kits for them to run events.
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Post by wayniac on Mar 9, 2017 1:46:09 GMT
You could not be a store employee and be a Press Ganger; they were intentionally separate because a PG was supposed to be able to go to different stores to run events or even if asked by the store to run a Warmachine demo; being a store employee would be a conflict of interest. I know that when I first learned the game, the store I went to did not have a Press Ganger. I went there one day (first time going to the store), specifically curious about Warmachine. When one of the employees greeted me, I said that I had just learned about Warmachine and was interested in it, that I was a fairly experienced gamer but had last played Warhammer some 13 years prior at that point. He ran a quick demo game, oddly enough not using the Mk2 two-player box which the store had, but his own Convergence army. It was an okay experience, but it was odd. The store later collapsed a few months after; by that point I had stopped going because there was nobody organizing games; on "Warmachine night" there was one guy who was always there, sometimes another staff member who played, and then everyone else it was pointed out used to play but were instead playing Warhammer (this was pre-Age of Sigmar).
Having a Press Ganger was having someone independent of the store who was supposed to grow the game, not grow the store. That was the point. When I was a PG briefly, I became one (at a different store) with another guy who basically considered himself the "shop's Press Ganger" and would only do things for that shop; the people at that shop were extremely insular, basically never did events or anything and barely helped anyone new who was curious about the game, at worst teaching them wrong/incorrect rules because they themselves never bothered to learn. The reason I went inactive was because this store made it clear they had zero interest in running anything official, and wanted to treat warmachine like most people would treat a board game like Clue or Monopoly; something to break out once in a while when you are bored. My efforts to get this store to improve their gameplay and grow their community fell on deaf ears as they had no desire to grow.
That's what I Fear will happen because I've seen it twice now. A store without someone, who is not affiliated with the store, to organize events and coordinate the game community is not going to do it, because they will not grow a community, they'll grow a bubble that is self-contained. The absolute worst thing to me is how game stores are often seen like gang turf, with people viciously defending "their" game store, causing friction with others who dare to mention another game store or considering shopping online or at another store as though it was High Treason and something punishable by banishment. This is the mentality we should have moved away from. The Press Gang was an independent group, loyal to the game and its players not to a store; if Store A has a tournament, the Press Ganger could and should make the community aware. If Store B is about to start a league, people should know. The community was kept separate from being involved in one store over another. That's why for me losing it is such a grievous blow to the Warmahordes community; we are right back to the Warmachine community being fractured into gangs fighting over turf, trying to keep "their" players only going to "their" store because now events are solely on the back of the store, and so there is a vested interest in keeping things insular and stagnant versus growing.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 1:49:08 GMT
Yeah gamers tend to be territorial and tribal, thats certainly true. With their games, with their home base, with their crew, etc. Not all, but there is definitely a tendency there.
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Post by redoctober on Mar 9, 2017 2:05:42 GMT
Here's the deal. WOTC, a subsidiary of Hasbro (read: deep pockets) has two active class action lawsuits filed against them. The basis for the lawsuit, while interesting from a legal standpoint, may not apply to the company/press ganger relationship. However, I can't say that disbanding the press gang is a bad move (if that is the real reason) considering the status of the two aforementioned suits. PP could have stated that considering the current ongoing litigious climate (vague, not acknowledging guilt or culpability), they were temporarily suspending the press gang in an abundance of caution. This would not only protect themselves from any future exposure but would also serve as positive communication to their customer base. Let's also bear in mind that disbanding the press gang does absolutely zero for them in terms of minimizing their legal exposure to date. If a person or group of people decide to follow in the footsteps of the two active class action suits, it will be based on historical facts. Disbanding/suspending the press gang would stop any further exposure but that's it. I still don't think that PP's relationship with press gangers marries up with the WOTC/Judge relationship to warrant a suit but that's up to a federal judge. TLDR: Two pending class action suits may have sent a ripple out to the gaming world. Some companies are reacting. Mistakes will me made. Better communication (non-incriminating) could have been issued to clear up some of the speculation. That still doesn't explain some of PP's other weird behavior. If you are at all interested in an article I found discussing the WOTC/Hasbro class action suits, take a look at the link below: blog.legalsolutions.thomsonreuters.com/top-legal-news/magic-card-game-judges-sue-for-lost-wages-claim-to-be-employees/
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Post by Tekanan on Mar 9, 2017 2:24:13 GMT
You could not be a store employee and be a Press Ganger; they were intentionally separate because a PG was supposed to be able to go to different stores to run events or even if asked by the store to run a Warmachine demo; being a store employee would be a conflict of interest. I know that when I first learned the game, the store I went to did not have a Press Ganger. I went there one day (first time going to the store), specifically curious about Warmachine. When one of the employees greeted me, I said that I had just learned about Warmachine and was interested in it, that I was a fairly experienced gamer but had last played Warhammer some 13 years prior at that point. He ran a quick demo game, oddly enough not using the Mk2 two-player box which the store had, but his own Convergence army. It was an okay experience, but it was odd. The store later collapsed a few months after; by that point I had stopped going because there was nobody organizing games; on "Warmachine night" there was one guy who was always there, sometimes another staff member who played, and then everyone else it was pointed out used to play but were instead playing Warhammer (this was pre-Age of Sigmar). Having a Press Ganger was having someone independent of the store who was supposed to grow the game, not grow the store. That was the point. When I was a PG briefly, I became one (at a different store) with another guy who basically considered himself the "shop's Press Ganger" and would only do things for that shop; the people at that shop were extremely insular, basically never did events or anything and barely helped anyone new who was curious about the game, at worst teaching them wrong/incorrect rules because they themselves never bothered to learn. The reason I went inactive was because this store made it clear they had zero interest in running anything official, and wanted to treat warmachine like most people would treat a board game like Clue or Monopoly; something to break out once in a while when you are bored. My efforts to get this store to improve their gameplay and grow their community fell on deaf ears as they had no desire to grow. That's what I Fear will happen because I've seen it twice now. A store without someone, who is not affiliated with the store, to organize events and coordinate the game community is not going to do it, because they will not grow a community, they'll grow a bubble that is self-contained. The absolute worst thing to me is how game stores are often seen like gang turf, with people viciously defending "their" game store, causing friction with others who dare to mention another game store or considering shopping online or at another store as though it was High Treason and something punishable by banishment. This is the mentality we should have moved away from. The Press Gang was an independent group, loyal to the game and its players not to a store; if Store A has a tournament, the Press Ganger could and should make the community aware. If Store B is about to start a league, people should know. The community was kept separate from being involved in one store over another. That's why for me losing it is such a grievous blow to the Warmahordes community; we are right back to the Warmachine community being fractured into gangs fighting over turf, trying to keep "their" players only going to "their" store because now events are solely on the back of the store, and so there is a vested interest in keeping things insular and stagnant versus growing. With all due respect, it sounds history would repeat itself even if you had an active PG then. The problem is not associated with whether a PG is available or not. It sounds like the store's objectives aren't aligned. I can see how having someone independent of the store to grow the game is a great idea. PP's Press Ganger program has worked in one way or another! However in the real world, challenges like what you mentioned exist. The problem will always exist whether a PG program exist or not. I have personally seen a Press Ganger become associated because the store he goes to supports him. He is seen to be only interested in bringing up a community in that store. While I am sure he has other reasons on why he does so, these things tend to happen because we have to work with resources available in front of us. I don't know how bad your "gang turf" situation is. All I can say is, hang on! Let people know that sometimes, it's alright and other times, it's business. Fortunately, most players in my surrounding area have matured to realise this. Bottom line: We the community have been introducing people to the world of the Iron Kingdoms since Mk.I. Nothing is stopping us from still doing so (except Haight's situation. That sucks.). If other communities e.g. Warhammer, etc. can grow without official company support, why can't we! Just a couple of cents from an unofficial WM recruiter in the PG-era.
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Post by redoctober on Mar 9, 2017 2:40:00 GMT
Bottom line: We the community have been introducing people to the world of the Iron Kingdoms since Mk.I. Nothing is stopping us from still doing so (except Haight's situation. That sucks.). If other communities e.g. Warhammer, etc. can grow without official company support, why can't we! Did Warhammer actually grow after GW nuked their official forums? I thought they were in a state of decline after that. I could be wrong so I am genuinely curious. My hunch is that cutting out official company support reduces a game's growth.
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Post by Korianneder on Mar 9, 2017 2:47:58 GMT
Bottom line: We the community have been introducing people to the world of the Iron Kingdoms since Mk.I. Nothing is stopping us from still doing so (except Haight's situation. That sucks.). If other communities e.g. Warhammer, etc. can grow without official company support, why can't we! Did Warhammer actually grow after GW nuked their official forums? I thought they were in a state of decline after that. I could be wrong so I am genuinely curious. My hunch is that cutting out official company support reduces a game's growth. GW is a publicly traded company so you can take a look at their stock. They shut the forums down in 2006 and had a couple years where their stock dropped by about half to around $150, but now it's worth like $900 or so. They've made pretty big strides in the last 10 years.
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Post by redoctober on Mar 9, 2017 2:53:43 GMT
Thanks seikishi. It is nice to see real facts in a world of online polarizing opinions. I wasn't aware that they were a publicly traded company. Have you all seen the same level of stride in terms of exposure in local gaming stores or conventions? I've seen a lot more WM and X-Wing players at the tables than GW games. Of course, that could just be a local issue.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 3:09:47 GMT
Wow, thats a very odd move.
I think they're not going to have much success treating with stores directly. The main impetus behind tournaments isn't the stores willingness, its having a dedicated person who will run the event. PGs are those people. Getting rid of them is a pretty bad move.
As for GW games, I think 40k didn't suffer too much from GW shutting their forums down because GW never had as much direct contact with their customers as PP has had. PP has always been extremely integrated with their game and customers. GW always had an antagonistic relationship at best.
Its just that PP has for some reason developed that same antagonistic view almost overnight, and they've pulled out quite rapidly and harshly. Thats going to severely hurt the game.
I also wouldn't say GWs current stock price is a good indicator. They've been doing some rather shady financial things to artificially inflate the value.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 9, 2017 3:19:12 GMT
I don't understand why they just hope... "We hope that Press Gangers will continue to organize events and remain pillars of their local communities". Sure, for awhile PGs might continue to host events, but every now and then some will stop. Without a program or any incentive, the community of PGs will slowly die off with nothing to replace them.
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Post by Tekanan on Mar 9, 2017 3:20:17 GMT
Thanks seikishi. It is nice to see real facts in a world of online polarizing opinions. I wasn't aware that they were a publicly traded company. Have you all seen the same level of stride in terms of exposure in local gaming stores or conventions? I've seen a lot more WM and X-Wing players at the tables than GW games. Of course, that could just be a local issue. Yeah, perhaps it's a local issue. In my area, 40k died in the mid 90's due to the Asian financial crisis. In the early 2000's, it saw a revival and have been growing. It hit a stump but got popular again when AoS released their generals handbook (to cater for people who like an organised game). Now with GW product releases touching nostalgic elements, community morale is pretty high! Its community grew so large that GW saw it as an opportunity to even open an official GW store here! From what I gather, the people left behind and grew the community were the ones who understood people can overreact, online postings can mean differently, issues can be geographically specific and mostly ignored reading comments on BoLS.
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Mar 9, 2017 5:49:15 GMT
The game store owners in my area couldn't organize a paint section, let alone a tournament or community. It'll basically depend on whether the former Press Gangers are willing to keep doing the work with zero recognition nor reward. Yeah my store has the same problem. Our Press Ganger was the only reason stuff was getting done. Our store owner has a bit of a hard-on for GW (even though only 4 people play it) so if anyone tries to do anything non-GW they better organize it themselves. This might mean the death of Warmahordes in my community. Same goes for my place. Seriously, when I saw this thread, I was like "WHAAAAAAT?!?!?". Not sure what to think about it - I do not know much about organizing anything, but what I know is that all success of WMH and active Warmachine life here existed thanks to PG work. Stores - nope, not by much, and I can hardly believe they'll do anything now. Dunno if it means "death of Warmachine" for us, or else, but what I DO know, is that more and more people are moving to Malifaux and even (good God...) AoS. When they hear the last knews, this will probably only intensify.
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Post by gothamsfinest on Mar 9, 2017 5:55:13 GMT
In my community, we have zero PGs. In fact, we have one in the entire country. Guess what? People still run events. They run events because they care about the game and the community. When new players emerge, people within the community take the time to help them out, give them advice, get them started etc, for no other reason than they care about the community. Now, with the advent of the new rewards included in tournament packs, all EOs get recognised, instead of the elite few who happened to get PG status.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 6:08:32 GMT
In my community, we have zero PGs. In fact, we have one in the entire country. Guess what? People still run events. They run events because they care about the game and the community. When new players emerge, people within the community take the time to help them out, give them advice, get them started etc, for no other reason than they care about the community. Now, with the advent of the new rewards included in tournament packs, all EOs get recognised, instead of the elite few who happened to get PG status. Sure, there will still be some people who will run events. but the Press Ganger program caused there to be more people to run events than there would have been otherwise. It was an excellent community jumpstarter program. Honestly I think the only shortcoming with the PG program was that they sometimes had issues confirming new ones fast enough, which was an issue on their side not having enough people to vet them. The requirements for PG status weren't difficult or anything, it was just having the time for someone at PP to approve new PGs that was the bottleneck, and their infamous software issues. PP has always had issues with getting stuff to run smoothly, both with their software and their general organization. They're kinda notoriously cheap. I was actually only informed a few weeks ago that PP finally hooked up their PG's accounts directly to the online store for cashing in their points. Seems weird they only just got that up and running barely a month before they cut out the program entirely.
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