zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Jul 28, 2017 11:12:11 GMT
Can someone sum up what we have learned so far on the topic? There was a number of ideas around but very few results. The best tactic against GF at the moment seems to be simply clocking him. You have to take quite a number of troops to be able to do that and present some treats - so that his turn IS long.
Strakhov is good for this kind of play cause he cuts several assasination angles Denny has.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 28, 2017 11:29:14 GMT
skathrex, you and auraco, brother from another mother? Anyway, that's a nice write up and seems logical to me based on Strakhov experience + pure Ghost Fleet theorymachine. A couple of questions... You said you can't keep the pirates back. I assume you mean Blackbane and crew. Yeah... seems a bit painful, but is there some upside here. No guns, so we're worried about them attacking in melee, which makes you vulnerable to the alpha but them suddenly vulnerable to a counterattack. And if the front lines are engaged, then Blackbane is only 8" back which puts him in range of your Forge Seers (if they're not dead yet, which seems like a huge problem in this matchup). As far as the Wraith Engine is concerned, if it's staying incorporeal that means it's not attacking. So, yeah, an annoying 15 point Machine Wraith generator for sure... But...isn't your GF opponent eventually going to attack, which (with overrun) means you're almost certainly going to have runway to close the distance and put on the hurt. Regarding both the pirates and wraith engine... if they're incorporeal and not attacking, then they're not jamming your or blocking your charge lane. So, there's that. So this is where you tell me that, hell's yes, you won a game by charging your Superiority charged grolar directly over the base of the wraith engine, over black bane, ending it's action in Denny's face. No? thebuoyancyofwater, yes I'm an OW2 fanboy (notwithstanding the naysayers who say that Vlad 1 is a better gunline caster...they're right but I love her toolbox). I am hoping she gets pre-released next month at GenCon. That doesn't help me now, but I'm likely to refit my caster pair with OW2 in it, at least for the rest of the year (if...indeed...I can snag her in August).
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 28, 2017 11:40:59 GMT
My annoying experiences with GF is that the pretty long threat range of the engines has them staying just out of regular threat range, plus incorporeal, then when it's convenient for the f'n Cryx player they charge in, after FEAT plus crippling grasp etc and either wreck a jack or two or do enough damage that it doesn't matter. If you are able to get things in on them after that, remember, most of your stuff can't charge and moves slower, hits worse, hits softer, it's still hard to kill them. Then with the new terrain rules, there always seems to be a LOS blocking terrain piece that Denny is behind so even if you have a Superiority, Overrun, FEATED jack ready to go, you can't even get the LOS to charge. Yeah, I'm not bitter...
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jul 28, 2017 12:06:12 GMT
That's when Behemoth with Reconstruct is nice Then retaliates with re-rollable attacks and a full load of focus. Cheers, Dave
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Post by skathrex on Jul 28, 2017 12:30:32 GMT
skathrex , you and auraco , brother from another mother? Anyway, that's a nice write up and seems logical to me based on Strakhov experience + pure Ghost Fleet theorymachine. A couple of questions... You said you can't keep the pirates back. I assume you mean Blackbane and crew. Yeah... seems a bit painful, but is there some upside here. No guns, so we're worried about them attacking in melee, which makes you vulnerable to the alpha but them suddenly vulnerable to a counterattack. And if the front lines are engaged, then Blackbane is only 8" back which puts him in range of your Forge Seers (if they're not dead yet, which seems like a huge problem in this matchup). As far as the Wraith Engine is concerned, if it's staying incorporeal that means it's not attacking. So, yeah, an annoying 15 point Machine Wraith generator for sure... But...isn't your GF opponent eventually going to attack, which (with overrun) means you're almost certainly going to have runway to close the distance and put on the hurt. Regarding both the pirates and wraith engine... if they're incorporeal and not attacking, then they're not jamming your or blocking your charge lane. So, there's that. So this is where you tell me that, hell's yes, you won a game by charging your Superiority charged grolar directly over the base of the wraith engine, over black bane, ending it's action in Denny's face. No? thebuoyancyofwater , yes I'm an OW2 fanboy (notwithstanding the naysayers who say that Vlad 1 is a better gunline caster...they're right but I love her toolbox). I am hoping she gets pre-released next month at GenCon. That doesn't help me now, but I'm likely to refit my caster pair with OW2 in it, at least for the rest of the year (if...indeed...I can snag her in August). Well, if we are he is definatly the older one. While in the past I talked a lot about playing Strakov he acutally played a lot more of him. I suffer a bit from Caster ADHD and only really focused on him the last 1-2 month since I decided I wanted to play him on a bigger german tournament. In practice we had a situation where my opponent went first, he moved up, I moved up. He engaged me and after a bit of thinking I just removed the jammers with other jacks and charged Denny, but we retrackted that, because we wanted to practise the matchup. That just showed how easy it is to underestimate the charge range of Strakov and shows he can win any game. In further testing what happend with the Ghost Pirates was, they ignored everything and went straight for Strakov. Which in terms pushed me back to the edge of the Killzone. You can go in with the Forge seers, but they just die a turn later. At the same time the normal Pirates went onto the line of my jacks, which brought them close to Strakov too. The WE didn't attack at all. In that matchup its way to valuable with Dark shroud to reduce the armor of my jacks and eventually get some Machine wraith to open my formations. Thats mostly what its there for anyways. In one of my games he put so much pressure on strakov that in the end he just scourged him and ran the WE close. Then he got charged by 3 pirates and died. He is safe against the rng Assasination, but as long as your opponent has arcnodes he is not really safe. If you manage to kill his arcnodes the Assasination thread is non-existend because he would need 10s to hit. The main problem for our Jacks is the Wave of Pirates that we can't get rid of, that eventually overwhelm us. zeffid: From my experience what works is simple: Sorscha2: Works, is a hard counter against normal GF list, may be weaker into Coven Butcher3: Has play into it. Most likely its just the better player wins. Bonus is he works against Dark Host as well (which is increasingly important) Strakov2: Dr.Norbert won some games against Gf by simply clocking it. But I am not sure if that was SR17 or 16. Sorscha1: Needs a bit of tuning and experience but she is a solid pick and also works great in the current meta. (also works against Dark Host) Zerkova1: might work, not sure, but has the tools to do the job. Hope that helps.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 28, 2017 13:42:28 GMT
Just chiming in from a few pages back.
So far the best GF drop I have played revolves around B3 in Winterguard theme with as the foundation stones Ruin, _AND_ a gun carriage. You have silence of death to plop down the the GC, Ruin to knock off the debuffs and sac pawn to generally keep Butcher safe. I have NOT played it in SR 2017. The key (see above) is figuring out whether you can avoid losing on scenario _IF_ the Cryx player attempts to use blackbanes to jam your GC. In such a situation I believe you have to back your GC up a bit, shoot, and then send butcher in to Empending doom and flashing blade them to smithereens (they are already dead <rim shot>). You have to do THAT because you need to free up the "pull" lanes. You do have a further advantage in SR 2017 because you can choose scenarios - allowing you to pull magic weapons in this match up and then somethhing else in the other (healing one?)
The interesting question (don't know the answer to it - might have to go to a SR next week to test out) is whether you could pair Loud Chris's Vlad2 list (I am really digging it ;-) with a B3 WGI theme and get through. I feel like you would have a hard'ish time into cygnar with that pair and that is a problem.
As others have posted it feels like OW2 provides very interesting coverage in khador against BOTH Swans and many crxy builds. Not sure what she doe1s in respect to the recursion mechanism though - that feels like a critical issues.
Finally, there is always Sorscha2. Maybe she will get CID'ed and we will get Freezing Grip back. Still irks she lost it and picks up really only a chance to fish for crititcals as an uber assassin. Frustrating game design that still doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by leotherat on Jul 28, 2017 13:57:15 GMT
I'm looking forward to the Greylords and MoW themes that should be out by the end of the year. Zerkova1 with the greylords may be the answer to Cryx in general and even some Cygnar. The MoW theme might make an interesting alt list to the greylords. Question: has anyone tried a non-themed Zerkova1 into GF yet? Something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b7b8F0d9vhF7whF8h7ygcd18GKhador Army - 74 / 75 points (Zerkova 1) Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova [+28] - Demolisher [16] - Juggernaut [12] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4] Greylord Forge Seer [4] - Behemoth [25] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Koldun Lord [4] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5] Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan [3] Greylord Outriders (max) [20] Kayazy Eliminators [5] With the extra point you could replace the Demolisher with Torch. If you keep the Koldun Lord nearby he can shut down the shooting after feat turn.
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 28, 2017 14:01:37 GMT
I think OW2 will be a good counter for us. But for now I am using this:
WG Theme Vlad1 Dog Grolar Grolar Joe WGIDS WGRCDS 2 Mortar 2 Field Gun Carriage
The ideas is to inflict as much shooting pain as possible and clock your opponent out. Vlad is generally safe from assassination with Wind Wall and Sac Pawn. Scourge is an issue.
When Mercs in theme drop I change the Grolars to Desteoyers and add in Aiyana an Holt. GG Ghost Fleet.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 28, 2017 14:06:48 GMT
I'm looking forward to the Greylords and MoW themes that should be out by the end of the year. Zerkova1 with the greylords may be the answer to Cryx in general and even some Cygnar. The MoW theme might make an interesting alt list to the greylords. Question: has anyone tried a non-themed Zerkova1 into GF yet? Something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b7b8F0d9vhF7whF7yd18a8GKhador Army - 74 / 75 points (Zerkova 1) Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova [+28] - Demolisher [16] - Juggernaut [12] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4] Greylord Forge Seer [4] - Behemoth [25] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5] Greylord Outriders (max) [20] Greylord Ternion [7] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Or replace Orin with Kell. Played her with MoWs into Grymkin piloted by the Heritic the other day with the loud Chris double boat build. Was "OK". Biggest issue as it lacked a zam removal except for Z's spray - and that gets AWFULLY close to the front line after you feat and thus doesn't feel like is has volume of attacks. The build above, however, has oodles of attacks and so should allow you to get a leg up before the recursion overwhelms you.
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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 28, 2017 19:11:48 GMT
Probably another silly list, but San's question thread got me thinking. What about Kharchev into Ghost Fleet?
War Room Army
Khador - New Army
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Berserker - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Berserker - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Berserker - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Berserker - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Berserker - PC: 9 - Berserker - PC: 9 - Berserker - PC: 9 - Berserker - PC: 9 - Berserker - PC: 9 - Berserker - PC: 9
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Marauder - PC: 10 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Manhunter - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf ---
GENERATED : 07/28/2017 13:45:21 BUILD ID : 2047.17-07-25
It's asking a question of Denny and her army that I'm not sure they have a good answer to. The goal with the berserkers is to play super aggressively with them and berserk into troops or throw the opposing jack models around until they break. With countercharge up I think it would make for an interesting game, but there's got to be something I'm missing.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 28, 2017 20:58:32 GMT
Do you own that many Beserkers?!?
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Post by auraco on Jul 28, 2017 21:24:39 GMT
I haven't tested the list against ghost fleet yet, I think Skathrex brings some good points but with my version of the list I would still go with the marshalled maraudeur, out of 6 jack it's ok if one of the maraudeur is out of the battlegroup. Also superiority is not a battlegroup spell so I think it might be possible to use terrain to get the marshalled maraudeur up to a good enough defense that the pistol wraith doesn't have a reliable chance of triggering the chain attack, throw a grenade with strakhov, walk the marauder in there, enjoy the def 14. Also battle engine are easy to see, so your maraudeur can be on the other side of a forest, or cloud now that SR2017 is here, and still see the wraith engine. I think using Strakhov's feat to get rid of the wraith engine is probably worth it. It's probably not an ideal match up, but I think it has enough plays to at least give a match up that's not an auto lose like a lot of other casters. Killing the arc nodes is clearly a priority.
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Post by auraco on Jul 28, 2017 21:37:40 GMT
I'm eager to see the greylord theme because I think the old witch could make it work like a charm against ghost fleet. I am also eager to see what happens with the mercenaries in theme forces, being able to take ayana & holt in theme could allow us to have way more game in ghost fleet that we currently have since our theme really lack in the magic attack division at the moment. I also like sand20go idea of running B3 in WGK with a battle engine against ghost fleet. The gun carriage looks like a very good piece against GF, not just for its killing power but also because the rough terrain might force Denny to cast ghost walk and leave her with less focus than she wants for debuffs and scourge.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 28, 2017 22:08:45 GMT
auracoAssuming your Marauder isnt stationary, How on earth are you going to keep your Forge Seers alive? Too risky! (Says the guy who hasn't played the matchup). And then You have a 10 point paperweight. Forge Seers have a design flaw...they should be able to grant magic weapons to any jack they empower!
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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 28, 2017 23:39:58 GMT
@armchair Warrior - nope, I don't own that many berserkers. And the design flaw in the forge seer that you pointed out is legitimate and I like your idea of a fix. Unfortunately I think that crosses over into Cygnar design space. Our models are not designed to be that universal.
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