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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Jun 15, 2017 14:40:53 GMT
So a while back there was a thread that discussed when to use each of our various different ranges based units and I was wondering what you guys thought about all of our melee units. With all of our new releases we now have 6 different melee units if you include the spears and I am sure they all have a place I have just yet to find where. Please discuss your thoughts.
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 15, 2017 18:42:33 GMT
Sentinels - Our hardest hitting infantry by raw stats. With wall of steel and iron zeal they are the highest armor infantry we have. Their main downside is only threatening 10", but they can make up for the with vengeance and relentless charge. At 22 points, they are also the most expensive. If you want infantry that kills heavies, these are a great pick. Kaelyssa, Ossyan, and Issyria all work well with Sentinels.
Halberdiers - A fast skirmishing unit that can do a little of everything. With shield wall, they quickly advance (faster than sentinels with the thane) at arm 18. Set defense helps them survive charges, and the minifeat gets them to pow 14, which can put serious dents in heavies. They do lack pathfinder, but they threat 13" without a caster and that is not something your opponent can ignore. The whole boat goes for 21 pts, so they often compete with Sentinels. If you want a more generalized unit that can do a bit better at jamming, you take these guys. Their main drawback is they only hit accurately and hard on the minifeat turn, so use that wisely! The also have cma for other turns, but it isn't as effective. Elara2, Ossyan, and Issyria all like halberdiers.
Infiltrators - These guys specialize in jamming and infantry clearing. Def 14 makes them harder to hit than halberdiers in general, and gang with two initials lets them hit accurately enough to theaten most infantry. They can even do a little damage to heavies in a pinch. At spd 7, they are our quickest melee unit without buffs (unless you count vengeance). Native stealth should also not be discounted. If you want a really cheap jam that occasionally gets work done and is very self reliant, these are your dudes. It should also be noted they are a good vessel for Eiryss3. I like them with Vyros2, Vyros1, and Thyron.
P.S. I firmly believe they will get a UA granting ambush, which will further differentiate them from Halbs and Swordsmen.
Now we get into theory. I didn't include the Spears because they aren't really comparable to the other 10 man units.
Ryssovass Defenders - On the surface, these guys seem like worse Sentinels, but there are a number of key differences. First, they get +2 def against melee attacks while b2b, making them def 14. Second, they have native tough, and defensive line keeps them from being knocked down. Third, they have precision strike and are pow 10 wm. Fourth, they are 16 pts compared to 22. Put that all together and you have a unit that is much more suited to fighting warjacks and is better at surviving in melee. Pow 10 is weaker than pow 12, but they can more easily scalpel out cortexes. A jack that can't boost will usually have a more difficult time hitting def 14. These guys definitely compete with sentinels, but I believe have a place as a budget option. You may not kill your target, but if you knock out important systems it can be a wash. It's also important to note that they lack pathfinder. I think they can do well with Kaelyssa into Warmachine, and can function with anyone else that likes sentinels as a cheaper option.
Ellowuyr Swordsmen - Infantry clearing specialists. These guys specialize in clearing infantry, with cleave, mat 7, and pow 12. They have blade shield to make them DEF 15 against shooting, and parry lets them get behind their targets. The minifeat protects them from melee infantry for a turn. These compete most directly with the infiltrators, but hit a bit harder and are more difficult to hit at range for things that ignore stealth. I think they pair well with Thyron, Vyros1, and Ossyan.
TL;DR Sents - Hard hits, hard armor, hard price Halbs - Generalists, also FAST Infiltratos - Jam/Infantry clearing, also E3 Defenders - Budget sentinels, kinda. Swordsmen - Infantry clearing
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Jun 16, 2017 3:34:49 GMT
This is not very helpful, I know, but I use Infiltrators because I like the models and I like Mage Hunters. I don't use the other units because they're not Mage Hunters. Infiltrators are definitely at their best when used in combination with Eiryss3 and some Strike Force, in order to create a critical mass of Advance Deploy troops that can dictate the flow of the battle.
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Post by fdesrochers on Jun 16, 2017 13:08:35 GMT
I approach my list building holistically; start with a concept for the army and develop from there, through multiple iterations, until I'm happy with it. I should also state I'm pretty much locked into a combined arms-centric mind set, so I won't ever do a full gun line or melee-only army. Theme forces are also something that must be considered, because of the benefits they provide.
A few cases in point:
Ossyan (Defenders of Ios) - Banshee - Hypnos - Sylys AFG Arcanists x 3 Ghost Snipers x 2 HG Thane HG Halbs (full) + CA SFA x 2
Halberdiers: Any melee requirements are handled by Jacks and Halbs, but with the extra move from Defenders, they are now a skirmishing force with a focus on alpha and board control. They don't hit as hard as Sentinels, but they don't necessarily need to. They push up and jam enemy skirmishers/alpha to keep the gun line happening. The Jacks are the only other melee elements, but they are second wave, leveraging the AFG bonus for range until the game state proves otherwise.
Thyron (Shadows of the Retribution) - Banshee - Griffons x 2 Arcanists x 2 MHA x 2 Narn Nayl MHI (full) + E3 + Soulless MHSF + CA MHSF + CA
MHI and MHSF: Shadows give a particular bonus in RFP that the MHI (and MHSF in a pinch) is designed to exploit, particularly under Feat. They also deliver E3 to leverage her Quick Work ability. Along with the MHSF units, I've flooded the AD line, but MHSF also now have a melee option (CMA with RFP). In this case, the MHI is there to drive forward and crash through any skirmishers and/or drive deep into the opponent's lines to distract. After the alpha, their best use may be just to die but force my opponent to spend resources. It's an obtuse form of board control allowing the assassins and MHSF to position for their alpha, backed up by the Jacks.
Garryth (no theme) - Banshee - Sphinx - Sylys Arcanists x 2 MHA x 2 Narn MHSF (full) + E3 Sentinels (full) + CA HSBM
Sentinels: Mirage gives them the option to possibly get both a Vengeance and Apparition move. They follow up the MHSF and assassin skirmishers and hopefully leverage some pulls and knockdowns from the HSBM to drive in and get a good alpha. They are just pure threat into heavy jack lists, and under Garryth's Feat, it helps mitigate the counter.
Regardless of the melee unit, my first question is whether the Caster or Theme provides a benefit and/or delivery mechanism. Ossyan has Quicken, Issyria has Crusader's Call, Kaelyssa leverages her Feat and Blur to allow melee units to advance, Garryth has Mirage, Thyron's Feat could be leveraged to drive past a unit's lead models into the remainder, Elara has Boundless Charge under Feat for *everyone.* What are you expecting your melee unit to do in the context of the remainder of the army? Even under casters that *don't* give them anything, there may be a place. Halbs in a Ravyn list might just be your throwaway skirmishers to let the guns move up and strike. Vyros1 may primarily need them to leverage on the Feat turn; anything they contribute is a bonus.
My next question is in game: how to they contribute to the game plan? This really comes into play Turn 2 and/or 3. In my last game, I popped Thyron's Feat to allow four MHI to charge into a unit of Steelhead Halberdiers threatening my left flanking MHSF squad. The Feat was pretty much wasted on four warrior models total, but the Sidestep and boosted hits cleared seven Steelheads and leveraged the board space for further turns leading to what would have been a scenario victory if I hadn't janked a Griffon charge assassination. The question to ask is what you expect from them in Turns 2-3, where they could be on the board and how to they leverage the remainder of the army/does the remainder leverage them? The basic info like charge point costs, distances and special abilities is a start, but really "in a bubble theory-machine." Case in point: how could the Dawnguard Scyir's Tactician ability leverage Sentinels + Invictors? <shrug>
I have neither the Swordsmen or the Defenders, so I won't bother with the theory machine, but the same holistic principle holds.
A few rambling thoughts.
;Francois
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Post by nightflier on Jun 17, 2017 20:58:51 GMT
I think that the defenders are one our few units that function better the later the game gets
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Post by Demeritus on Jun 19, 2017 14:06:07 GMT
I think that the defenders are one our few units that function better the later the game gets Why do you feel that way (not trying to be snarky, just curious)?
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 20, 2017 1:50:36 GMT
Just a guess, but in the endgame, efficiency is king. Every attack counts.
In that light, Defenders excel.
1. Tough - wastes opponents' attacks 2. Defensive line 2a. +2 Def - Increases odds opponents will miss in melee (Def 14 is pretty good) 2b. Steady - Makes tough more valuable 3. Weapon master - makes attacks more valuable 4. Precision Strike - makes attacks dramatically more efficient against jacks and beasts 5. Mat 7 - Helps hit, waste less attacks
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Post by nightflier on Jun 21, 2017 6:13:06 GMT
What this guy said ^^. These guys are as hard to hit in melee as mage hunters. Even more so against low pow stuff cause arm 15 can actually block non wm pow 10s every now and then. Also tough is generally cause people to play against them. Only committing when they can put extra attacks into them. Also ps means that only 1-2 can cripple an important system on an already damaged jack where as sentinels would need a few more to stay relevant.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jun 23, 2017 9:46:38 GMT
I think for me the thought process goes something like:
Houseguard Halberdiers: The all-round unit I take if I can't decide if I need anti-infantry or anti-ARM. They also get very far up the board in Defenders of Ios, so that is another reason for taking them. They are a front line unit.
Dawnguard Sentinels: Anti-ARM. I prefer them with additional defensive tech because they are easy to hit and kill at range without buffs. They like to be a second wave (when possible) to protect them (they are expensive after all).
Mage Hunter Infiltrators: Anti-infantry and a very fast jamming unit. Two attacks each lets them deal with Tough even out of Theme and they are pretty cheap for what they do.
OK, I haven't played our new units enough to really know them, so take the following with a good pinch of salt!
Ellowuyr Swordsmen: Also anti-infantry which makes them compete with the Infiltrators. They have anti-ranged tech built in (which is very useful in my meta) but lack Stealth. Parry lets them run to engage and makes them more interesting for Vyros1 as feat triggers. Otherwise, Cleave and their mini-feat makes them more interesting with Thyron and Gyrrshyld.
Rhyssovas Defenders: Budget Sentinels but Hard makes them more resistant to cavalry, which is popular around here. Defensive melee tech makes them better against melee armies, so if Cryx rises to prominence I guess these guys will be decent counters.
Spears of Scyrah: The cheapest unit yet most expensive per model. So far, I am mostly interested in getting them for Shield Guard but I realise that they can be ridiculously hard to remove if your opponent can't boost. Range 2 on their melee weapons helps with this.
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