Post by sand20go on Jun 13, 2017 19:10:55 GMT
So at this point (according to Iron Grudge) I have over 30 games since MK3 launched with Hark. My now standard list is Hark with 3 Juggers, 3 kodiaks, ForgeSeers x2 with Behemoth under 1, min mechanics, and then a WMM and a Manhunter in the Jaws Theme.
Lots of observations here but I am beginning to wonder if the Iron Wolf, while fantastic, should be replaced by Malakov2?
Lets go to the tape and see what it says
Jack Points: The Same. Both clock in at 28
Defensive stats and abilities
Hark- Def 14; ARM 16; 18 boxes. Gets defensive stats buff (no knockdown and +2 to both) by being B2B with a Jack. He CAN NOT be knocked down in this instance, which can be huge. This can be nice but further encouraged the Hark turtle and Can mean you have to hold a jack back from doing work. No real defensive spells. Field Marshal ability provides for Kodiak cloud wall which can be golden. Feat can help Hark survive several kinds of assassination efforts.
Malakov - Def 15; ARM 14 only 15 boxes. Old mannish. However, has Sucker, Prowl and a cloud on a stick. He can also, benefit from his feat, allowing him to no get knocked down and then move away. Honestly, probably BETTER against shooting as long as you can avoid a POW+Dice of 34 (which would one shot him).
So a good question becomes who is more survivable in MOST situations? Not sure it is obvious as both probably die if you get a jack or caster into conflict with them on a non feat turn. On the feat turn likely Malakv2 is as I have had Hark get shot off the table plenty times - indeed it is my most frequent "lose" scenario but Malakov very easily able to "dance away" out of range or behind an obstruction or otherwise be exceedingly irritating if he can't sac pawn things. So while Hark even under feat has to pay careful attention to Caine3 Malakov has "answers" - from Sac pawning to, in the worst case, simply moving out of range of all the nasty crap shooting at him.
Escort vs. Mobility
An interesting comparison. Mobility better for Running and for pathfinder. But we are also comparing an upkeep versus a spell that costs Hark 1/2 of his stack every turn he wants to cast. If you are taking Ruin and Kodiaks you have to ask the question - do I ALWAYS need the pathfinder. Now with Hark I very often do - loving that forests are a pain for my opponent but not for me. Ditto Walls. Ditto Rubble. So there is definitely that.
An important consideration, however, is the combo of Mobility and H's feat which helps tremendously with focus efficiency. M2 has non of that and it is a real consideration if you try to run him jack heavy. Which I think means M2 wants at most 2-3 jacks. You want them to have some assassination threat (reach?). Kodiaks, for all their pillow fists, are nice for the clouds.
The Feats and Jack Survivability
Hark's feat is fantastic but it isn't a guarantee of living. A crusader, for example, under the full synergy chain+Battle is doing straight dice damage under feat to your kodiaks/juggers. Nemo3 can rev Dynamo's shooting up to ungodly levels. Convergence Coll. can pull your jacks in and wack them to death - either under or out of your feat.
But M2's feat provides answers to lots of the above. Since it can trigger multiple times and it is almost impossible to one shot a Khador jack you can dance away from ranged damage unless he is VERY close (and then you could potentially dance TOWARD him and engage). You can get out of LOS. Morever (and I think this is critical) the feat doesn't allow you to be knocked down. So a standard trick to deal with enliven (knock them down) doesn't work. You can also, if need be, put up the Veil so now you can either move FORWARD to set up an assassination run OR move back through a model (again, denying the standard enliven trick of pinning a model with bodies.
A subtopic is the feat and jam. Hark arguably can do this slightly better because of mobility and the straight speed buff. If your opponent is pillowfisted there seems a decent argument to be made to simply run cheap stuff (Mauraders - or maybe, sacriledge, even Zerkers/Mad Dogs) into your opponent's face and jam them out. M2 can do this as well but suffers from the fact that his jam is slower and he has to give up board space as he advances out of melee.
The Feat and the Alpha
Here is where Hark shines much brighter, especially the more jacks that are coming. Hark's is so focus efficient with the free power attacks if you opponent provides you the alpha.
Battleplans plus Tac Supremacy
M2's biggest benefit here is his ability to tun up infantry - from knocking you down to giving you an extra dice for back strikes allowing you to make things like Doom Reavers stealthy by giving them sneak and then running them into the Veil. This really provides a mixed arm approach that seems golden. Frustrated with the Ghost fleet? Well just reread the sentence prior. Irritated with Amon's Jack Wall? Well consider charging something in, knocking the jacks down and then applying widowmakers to his pretty choir.
There are also lots of options here. Tac Supremacy on, for example, the Nyss+Valachev has always been near broken. You can also do "fun" things such as giving them dirty fighter. Zepher up and then use ONE to move 7 and wack on something blocking LOS. Have the rest move in for a hunter improved CRA shot to one round a caster. Good times!
Conclusions and Parting thoughts
The Iron Wolf is a fantastic caster. I have had a ton of fun playing him with the Kodiak Cloud wall and I know I will continue. But I think M2, with a high quality Jack list in mixed arm format is flat out better. His feat allows him to be perhaps SAFER than Hark against most threats and definitely improves his match up, for example, against Convergence in tier. His ability to run infantry should be beneficial in SR2017. He isn't as great "in theme" as Hark because of that but provides very interesting questions to folks that not a lot of things answer
So a fairly viable M2 list, it would seem, would be something like
Malkov
Doge
Ruin (because Ruin)
Kodiak (cloud and Sneak)
Jugger
Drakhun (simply AMAZING) with a mid range charge under dirty fighter for 5 Dice POW 14. Good times!!!
Nyss+Valachev (Boy I wish Hunter still allowed you to ignore forests and clouds). But still good times.
Doom Revers (see above about sneak and clouds)
Eliminators x2 (possibly setting up late game Assassination).
Min Mechanics
Lots of options here
Tac Supremacy goes on the Nyss for Shoot and effective 5 inch repo. Alternatively, can go on the Kodiak who can trample his Hark standard 9, drop cloud, and then Repo away. Thus if AOEs or sprays of not on the board the Doomies - who have gotten sneak, can go run up and plop themselves down in the 8 inches worth of cloud bank with out bunching TOO much up. Now he has stealth, tough Doomies to think about. Ghost fleet be dammed.
Drakhun can hang out for sucker - being healed up if need be by the mechanics.
Seems highly legit and frequently as good or even better than Hark.
Has the Iron Wolf be dethroned? DISCUSS
PS. Some rule interactions to get clarified
There are at least 2 corner case rules that I want/need to get clarified with him. First, because of the benefits of backstab it would be important to understand how knocked down targets interact with the whole, can't charge out of melee rule. I BELIEVE it doesn't apply since Knocked down models neither engage and can not be engaged but I would want to understand that better.
Second, Does Hyper Aggressive Stack with this feat? I see no reason it wouldn't which could allow Beast to do some very silly 8 inch moves - from getting 8 inches closer to making some "Vs" (first moving any direction and then moving directly toward). But again, one of those things to be sure I am reading correctly.
Lots of observations here but I am beginning to wonder if the Iron Wolf, while fantastic, should be replaced by Malakov2?
Lets go to the tape and see what it says
Jack Points: The Same. Both clock in at 28
Defensive stats and abilities
Hark- Def 14; ARM 16; 18 boxes. Gets defensive stats buff (no knockdown and +2 to both) by being B2B with a Jack. He CAN NOT be knocked down in this instance, which can be huge. This can be nice but further encouraged the Hark turtle and Can mean you have to hold a jack back from doing work. No real defensive spells. Field Marshal ability provides for Kodiak cloud wall which can be golden. Feat can help Hark survive several kinds of assassination efforts.
Malakov - Def 15; ARM 14 only 15 boxes. Old mannish. However, has Sucker, Prowl and a cloud on a stick. He can also, benefit from his feat, allowing him to no get knocked down and then move away. Honestly, probably BETTER against shooting as long as you can avoid a POW+Dice of 34 (which would one shot him).
So a good question becomes who is more survivable in MOST situations? Not sure it is obvious as both probably die if you get a jack or caster into conflict with them on a non feat turn. On the feat turn likely Malakv2 is as I have had Hark get shot off the table plenty times - indeed it is my most frequent "lose" scenario but Malakov very easily able to "dance away" out of range or behind an obstruction or otherwise be exceedingly irritating if he can't sac pawn things. So while Hark even under feat has to pay careful attention to Caine3 Malakov has "answers" - from Sac pawning to, in the worst case, simply moving out of range of all the nasty crap shooting at him.
Escort vs. Mobility
An interesting comparison. Mobility better for Running and for pathfinder. But we are also comparing an upkeep versus a spell that costs Hark 1/2 of his stack every turn he wants to cast. If you are taking Ruin and Kodiaks you have to ask the question - do I ALWAYS need the pathfinder. Now with Hark I very often do - loving that forests are a pain for my opponent but not for me. Ditto Walls. Ditto Rubble. So there is definitely that.
An important consideration, however, is the combo of Mobility and H's feat which helps tremendously with focus efficiency. M2 has non of that and it is a real consideration if you try to run him jack heavy. Which I think means M2 wants at most 2-3 jacks. You want them to have some assassination threat (reach?). Kodiaks, for all their pillow fists, are nice for the clouds.
The Feats and Jack Survivability
Hark's feat is fantastic but it isn't a guarantee of living. A crusader, for example, under the full synergy chain+Battle is doing straight dice damage under feat to your kodiaks/juggers. Nemo3 can rev Dynamo's shooting up to ungodly levels. Convergence Coll. can pull your jacks in and wack them to death - either under or out of your feat.
But M2's feat provides answers to lots of the above. Since it can trigger multiple times and it is almost impossible to one shot a Khador jack you can dance away from ranged damage unless he is VERY close (and then you could potentially dance TOWARD him and engage). You can get out of LOS. Morever (and I think this is critical) the feat doesn't allow you to be knocked down. So a standard trick to deal with enliven (knock them down) doesn't work. You can also, if need be, put up the Veil so now you can either move FORWARD to set up an assassination run OR move back through a model (again, denying the standard enliven trick of pinning a model with bodies.
A subtopic is the feat and jam. Hark arguably can do this slightly better because of mobility and the straight speed buff. If your opponent is pillowfisted there seems a decent argument to be made to simply run cheap stuff (Mauraders - or maybe, sacriledge, even Zerkers/Mad Dogs) into your opponent's face and jam them out. M2 can do this as well but suffers from the fact that his jam is slower and he has to give up board space as he advances out of melee.
The Feat and the Alpha
Here is where Hark shines much brighter, especially the more jacks that are coming. Hark's is so focus efficient with the free power attacks if you opponent provides you the alpha.
Battleplans plus Tac Supremacy
M2's biggest benefit here is his ability to tun up infantry - from knocking you down to giving you an extra dice for back strikes allowing you to make things like Doom Reavers stealthy by giving them sneak and then running them into the Veil. This really provides a mixed arm approach that seems golden. Frustrated with the Ghost fleet? Well just reread the sentence prior. Irritated with Amon's Jack Wall? Well consider charging something in, knocking the jacks down and then applying widowmakers to his pretty choir.
There are also lots of options here. Tac Supremacy on, for example, the Nyss+Valachev has always been near broken. You can also do "fun" things such as giving them dirty fighter. Zepher up and then use ONE to move 7 and wack on something blocking LOS. Have the rest move in for a hunter improved CRA shot to one round a caster. Good times!
Conclusions and Parting thoughts
The Iron Wolf is a fantastic caster. I have had a ton of fun playing him with the Kodiak Cloud wall and I know I will continue. But I think M2, with a high quality Jack list in mixed arm format is flat out better. His feat allows him to be perhaps SAFER than Hark against most threats and definitely improves his match up, for example, against Convergence in tier. His ability to run infantry should be beneficial in SR2017. He isn't as great "in theme" as Hark because of that but provides very interesting questions to folks that not a lot of things answer
So a fairly viable M2 list, it would seem, would be something like
Malkov
Doge
Ruin (because Ruin)
Kodiak (cloud and Sneak)
Jugger
Drakhun (simply AMAZING) with a mid range charge under dirty fighter for 5 Dice POW 14. Good times!!!
Nyss+Valachev (Boy I wish Hunter still allowed you to ignore forests and clouds). But still good times.
Doom Revers (see above about sneak and clouds)
Eliminators x2 (possibly setting up late game Assassination).
Min Mechanics
Lots of options here
Tac Supremacy goes on the Nyss for Shoot and effective 5 inch repo. Alternatively, can go on the Kodiak who can trample his Hark standard 9, drop cloud, and then Repo away. Thus if AOEs or sprays of not on the board the Doomies - who have gotten sneak, can go run up and plop themselves down in the 8 inches worth of cloud bank with out bunching TOO much up. Now he has stealth, tough Doomies to think about. Ghost fleet be dammed.
Drakhun can hang out for sucker - being healed up if need be by the mechanics.
Seems highly legit and frequently as good or even better than Hark.
Has the Iron Wolf be dethroned? DISCUSS
PS. Some rule interactions to get clarified
There are at least 2 corner case rules that I want/need to get clarified with him. First, because of the benefits of backstab it would be important to understand how knocked down targets interact with the whole, can't charge out of melee rule. I BELIEVE it doesn't apply since Knocked down models neither engage and can not be engaged but I would want to understand that better.
Second, Does Hyper Aggressive Stack with this feat? I see no reason it wouldn't which could allow Beast to do some very silly 8 inch moves - from getting 8 inches closer to making some "Vs" (first moving any direction and then moving directly toward). But again, one of those things to be sure I am reading correctly.
