zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Mar 10, 2017 9:26:15 GMT
I'm considering trying out a Karchev list and need your advice fellows. Or better some extended thinking.
First of all the question is Theme or Not? Basically you sacrifice versatility for speed but also gain some brute boxes.
Then is it all Jack or a healthy mix? Clearly you are not going infantry heavy but you can have some good infantry-based RtW triggers. Is that Rifle Corps or Sniper Corps or both? Or wall of steel is the way to go? Even then I can think of taking some interesting support pieces out of theme - like drakhun.
Last, what is the list pair? If I expect to play Karchev in most matches. What are his liabilities to cover? Where have you found him fighting uphill?
Thanks in advance,
Andrey
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Mar 10, 2017 12:04:57 GMT
Your choice of theme or not is really dependant of your second caster.
In theme you don't have anti magic hate, so Haley 2, parasite casters and whoever rely heavily on spells can be a hell of a match.
On the other hand you're golden vs armies with anti magic hate or anti stationary / freeze immunity armies since you got only one plan: put up one upkeep and muscle your way to victory. Also you laugh in face of range assassination lists. But careful, beatsticks can still bring karchev down.
The pair I'm experimenting with is armchair warrior one, butcher 3 and karchev. I'm not sure how we arrived at the same conclusion, I just wanted armies engineered to grind everything to dust without much finesse and to intimidate my opponents with.
But look everything is strong in Khador. Karchev + Vlad 1 Karchev + Vlad 2 Karchev + pSorscha Karchev + Irusk 1 Karchev + Irusk 2
Just to list some. Probably the only caster you don't want to pair with Karchev is harkevich, just because their game it's a bit too similar. But really, choose whatever makes you happy.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 10, 2017 12:09:20 GMT
Well, to theme or not depends of ypur pairing. I pair Karchev with Irusk2 in theme, so i use the man in the machine outside the theme. Of course advance move is great, and you can play karchev well without character jacks or mercs, this is sure.
I prefer snipers over riflecorps to trigger RTW, cause with the sniper ability you can easely kill every single wound infantry in the game (and ignore tough), and for 12pts you have 7 damage to every target you choose, so they are great also against arcnodes. Of course, if you play in theme you'll want to play winterguards to get the advance move, so maybe a min of RC+rockets and joe can be nice, but it takes 18pts, that are a lot, and you will not pay other 12pts for the snipers. That would be 30pts, so you have 75pts left for the jacks. And you have only one advance move and no free WG crews. So at the end i think is better to decide between theme (with RC) or not theme (with snipers).
As armchair said, you want to take at least 6 heavies with karchev, cheap heavies, like marauders and juggernaut. This list struggles with rough terrains, so i would take also kodiaks to mitigate it. And cloudwalls are still nice to protect the caster.
I'm not a great expert, but i think karchev suffer everything that can knockdown him, or move his jacks away. Also rough terrain is a big problem because the most of your army became incredibly slow.
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Post by kommandantgrizzwar on Mar 10, 2017 16:08:01 GMT
if you are not running in theme, i suggest using goblin tinkers instead of mechanics. he is great and generally harder to kill than mechanics.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 11, 2017 0:50:12 GMT
I'm considering trying out a Karchev list and need your advice fellows. Or better some extended thinking. First of all the question is Theme or Not? Basically you sacrifice versatility for speed but also gain some brute boxes. Then is it all Jack or a healthy mix? Clearly you are not going infantry heavy but you can have some good infantry-based RtW triggers. Is that Rifle Corps or Sniper Corps or both? Or wall of steel is the way to go? Even then I can think of taking some interesting support pieces out of theme - like drakhun. Last, what is the list pair? If I expect to play Karchev in most matches. What are his liabilities to cover? Where have you found him fighting uphill? Thanks in advance, Andrey Go theme, take 4 artillery units and optionally Wgrc+Joe (min+rockets, max no rockets also works if you're a point short). That Advance move really makes a difference. The priority for guns are enemy support pieces, and crippled heavies that lost their movement or got knocked down by Marauders (can hit them in melee that way). At the very least take 2 field guns or mortars, it will allow for two most forward jacks to reach objectives fast on both flanks. 6 jacks is bare minimum, you can have up to 9 with 2 guns and mechaniks depending on how much Marauders you spam. Personally I prefer 2x Devastators (for objectives), 2x Juggernauts (main damage dealers) and Marauders the rest. Bad matchups are Synergy casters because they outdamage you and immune to knockdown def skews like Baldur2/Fyana2/etc which again outdamage you because you'll miss a lot.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 12, 2017 20:39:10 GMT
Your choice of theme or not is really dependant of your second caster. In theme you don't have anti magic hate, so Haley 2, parasite casters and whoever rely heavily on spells can be a hell of a match. On the other hand you're golden vs armies with anti magic hate or anti stationary / freeze immunity armies since you got only one plan: put up one upkeep and muscle your way to victory. Also you laugh in face of range assassination lists. But careful, beatsticks can still bring karchev down. The pair I'm experimenting with is armchair warrior one, butcher 3 and karchev. I'm not sure how we arrived at the same conclusion, I just wanted armies engineered to grind everything to dust without much finesse and to intimidate my opponents with. But look everything is strong in Khador. Karchev + Vlad 1 Karchev + Vlad 2 Karchev + pSorscha Karchev + Irusk 1 Karchev + Irusk 2 Just to list some. Probably the only caster you don't want to pair with Karchev is harkevich, just because their game it's a bit too similar. But really, choose whatever makes you happy. Well, clearly you arrived at my list pairing because you were swayed by my brilliance and cunning mastery of the game. Right? So, like folks are saying, you can swing Karchev a few ways and how you build him really does depend a bit on your second caster. If you're going with the theme, then I think you're putting up to 20 points into winterguard stuff to get between 2-5 advance moves. I'm sticking with my original "take at least 6 jacks" point. Out of theme: - Tinkers are good. I always bring Battle Mechanics just to have the extra bodies floating around but realize I'm in the minority here. - Orin is always good, with anyone. Orin is love. Orin is life. - Widowmakers are good (which you can take in theme, but why then limit yourself to the theme). Amazing RTW triggers here. - Ruin is good. Behemoth is good but too expensive for my taste with this caster (I'd rather have a second Destroyer for 3 more points). - Reinholt is good. I think if you're bringing more than 20-22 points in OTW (other than warjacks) then you should rethink if you really want to be bringing Karchev. Regarding khaddorjack's point, I'd offer this: - Bring Kodiaks. You want some infantry removal, and Karchev likes jacks that can throw stuff around. You need some pathfinder. Pathfinder is life. - I don't find Karchev's list terribly slow. I usually cast RTW turn 1 and just upkeep it. +3" is enough. - The theme with 5 advance moves is pretty brutal for scenario in SR2016. Dunno about SR 2017.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 12, 2017 22:34:02 GMT
I think if you're bringing more than 20-22 points in OTW (other than warjacks) then you should rethink if you really want to be bringing Karchev. I found that between 20-30 points non-jacks + free stuff in theme is what gives you the most optimal amount of stuff. Karchev isn't a Synergy caster or something like that, jack quantity doesn't matter much outside feat turn and feat got nerfed anyway. Also there's the matter of overkill. There's nothing in the game that requires you to have 9 jacks with boosted damage rolls. Adding jacks starts giving diminishing returns to your offensive power, while adding long range shooting infantry allows to remove opponent's support and rob him of force multipliers.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 12, 2017 22:58:41 GMT
Smoothcriminal, I'm not disagreeing that ranged support isn't good. This is my favorite theme build.
War Room Army
Khador - K7
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 5 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 5 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
However, I disagree on your point regarding diminishing returns from more jacks.
I look at it this way. If I'm playing against someone with some support and 5 heavies, but I have less support but 7-8 heavies, I can trade heavies and wind up with nothing on my opponent's side of the table that can kill Karchev. Also, the additional heavies isn't about killing one thing. It's about killing lots of things across the table, and using RTW to extend your threat range. At the margin, if I'm considering 13 points of support for infantry removal I have to ask myself would I rather just spend those points on a Kodiak, which removes infantry just fine and also benefits from Karchev's spells and feat.
Again, I'm not saying support is bad. I'm just saying that Karchev makes jacks really good, and not just with the feat (which, while nerfed, is still good).
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