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Post by khadorjack on Mar 8, 2017 17:52:20 GMT
Hi guys!
First, i would say... wouldn't be better to create an appropriate "list building and discussion" section? Maybe the forum would be less confuse.
I played Karchev last monday against trolls, reporting a nice victory via casterkill. The list was
Karchev
Doggy
2x Juggy
2x Kodiaks
Behemoth
widomakers
full mechs
marksman
Bokur
Orin
I pair this list with a "all-welcome" Irusk2 theme list with 4 heavies and 2 full of riflecorps, that a like so much.
So Karchev would be my Cygnar drop. Any advices?
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Levyathan
Light Addition
"I am Everywhere."
Posts: 67 
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Post by Levyathan on Mar 8, 2017 18:16:19 GMT
Assuming the Bokur is contracted to Karchev protection, I'd say go down to min mechanics and remove the widowmaker marksman to upgrade the 2 juggernauts to kodiaks and insert another min unit of mechanics. This allows a redundant line of smoke / LOS denial to deliver Karchev into the opponent. Or alternatively switch the 2 Juggernauts for Marauders and then go for another min unit of mechanics, now you have something that will wreck colossals you may come against on feat turn, while still retaining a Kodiak smoke wall. Otherwise the list looks nice to me.  |
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 8, 2017 18:21:55 GMT
Yep, bokur is here to protect karchev (and Orin, too)
I really like marauders (i play 3 of them with Erusk) but against other heavies sometimes POW 16 is simply not enough... The same reason i don't want to use 4 kodiaks. But maybe Karchev feat could fix this. I'll try with the marauders maybe!
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Levyathan
Light Addition
"I am Everywhere."
Posts: 67
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Post by Levyathan on Mar 8, 2017 18:37:42 GMT
Well if you can use to road to war to get the alpha and charge, a marauder is a force to be reckoned with.
I agree the Kodiak's pow 16 fist don't have the force of the juggernauts pow 19 axe, however stuff like chain attack:grab and smash on a mat 7 body is golden against hard targets because you then almost certainly ensure you'll auto hit by doing stuff like throwing the target at your own feet for the successive attacks, which on feat turn is wrecking / disabling jacks regardless.
Basically since my initial question earlier in the week I may have fallen in love with mk3 Kodiaks... They kinda do a lot of everything.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Mar 9, 2017 6:00:13 GMT
Karchev was hit pretty bad... I got some issues in dealing with legion high defense beasts. Is far from unplayable, mind it, it's still a strong caster but doesn't have the power level of his previous incarnation. Last time I played him I played with wgi theme.
Not bad at all but I lost the game, mostly because I did mistakes not because he wasn't strong enough.
My list:
War Room Army
Khador - karchev wgc
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand
1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Stockpile - Steamroller Objective
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30
- Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
- Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
- Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
- Destroyer - PC: 14
- Juggernaut - PC: 12
- Juggernaut - PC: 12
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 5 Grunts: 5
THEME: Winter Guard Kommand
---
GENERATED : 03/09/2017 07:59:51
BUILD ID : 2037.17-02-13
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 9, 2017 8:40:05 GMT
Well, i think Karchev Spell list is very nice (RTW in particoular), only the feat is a bit "useless". Having boosted damage on charge is half-wasted 'cause you already have boosted damage on the charge attack, and if you charge you have only 2 FOC to use on your jacks. I would be far better if the feat would allowed you to have additional damage instead of boosted, or maybe free charges. However, magical damage is very very nice, probabily the first reason i took karchev as my Irusk2 pairing. The problem here is armor cracking, i mean, very high armor cracking. Against cygnar or convergence on feat turn you have to face ARM 24-25, and with POW16, even if boosted, you will unlikely wreck something.
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Levyathan
Light Addition
"I am Everywhere."
Posts: 67
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Post by Levyathan on Mar 9, 2017 9:43:51 GMT
Well, i think Karchev Spell list is very nice (RTW in particoular), only the feat is a bit "useless". Having boosted damage on charge is half-wasted 'cause you already have boosted damage on the charge attack, and if you charge you have only 2 FOC to use on your jacks. I would be far better if the feat would allowed you to have additional damage instead of boosted, or maybe free charges. However, magical damage is very very nice, probabily the first reason i took karchev as my Irusk2 pairing. The problem here is armor cracking, i mean, very high armor cracking. Against cygnar or convergence on feat turn you have to face ARM 24-25, and with POW16, even if boosted, you will unlikely wreck something. So you facing alot of Arcane Shielded Centurions, Stormclads under Stryker 1s feat and stuff under father lucant. Well you know what that means, time to introduce the Khadoran special weapon, and king of heavy armour, the demolisher and devastator. In essence you could outlast your opponents feat, though the loss of native arm 25 has been a major loss in being the original super survivor. |
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 9, 2017 10:16:20 GMT
I like the full boat of snipers. The Marksman has won me games and the 5 of them is a pretty surefire way to shoot the arc nodes off of things.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 9, 2017 10:36:23 GMT
I have only to find the points. I already own 2 devastators, but should i drop the behemoth to play them? Big B is a very nice way to crack armor and trigger RTW aswell. And Devs do nothing more than walking around staying closed ant taking shots. No pathfinder aswell. I like the full boat of snipers. The Marksman has won me games and the 5 of them is a pretty surefire way to shoot the arc nodes off of things. They are wanderfull to trigger RTW. Wanderfull. |
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Levyathan
Light Addition
"I am Everywhere."
Posts: 67
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Post by Levyathan on Mar 9, 2017 10:58:34 GMT
I have only to find the points. I already own 2 devastators, but should i drop the behemoth to play them? Big B is a very nice way to crack armor and trigger RTW aswell. And Devs do nothing more than walking around staying closed ant taking shots. No pathfinder aswell. Very true, I tend towards Demolishers for this reason, though they are slightly more expensive. I'd not drop Behemoth, he is still one of the most versatile jacks in the Khadoran stable. I think the problem is your list has few points that can be really budged around, i feel the loss is gonna have to come from the Juggernauts being changed out and the widowmaker marksman being removed, granted he can be fantastic, for the jack options you need to form a strong jack front. As it stands I can see your list is really tight and well honed but the change is difficult and often very personal. As stated previously you probably need the attrition if you are regularly facing arm 24 - 25, which I'm assuming is from feats and arcane shield. So I would switch Juggernauts for Devastators and use the marksman being dropped for the points, which can open up trades that require over exposure by the opponent to remove, then follow up with the Kodiaks hitting / throwing a meal to Behemoth which gets to kill / cripple them with its fists. |
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 9, 2017 11:08:40 GMT
I really don't like demolisher, too expensive. Actually i'm not facing so much ARM every time, but it happens sometimes (with convergence). Also, i never faced Cygnar in my meta, but this would be my cygnar drop, so i have to think about it.
After your advices i was thinking about swapping the juggernauts to marauders, dropping the behemoth and adding 2 devastators. The loss of the 2 bombards hurts, as the loss of armor piercing does. But i have one heavy more, and i can block my opponents trivial pieces and the turn after i can hit quite hard under feat. They are annoying also thanks to RTW. The marauders helps also against colossal with 4 dices in feat.
Dropping the marksman would be an idea, but i think remaining on 5 heavies losing the juggernauts is a bit too much. I think i prefer the first option, but i have to playtest it.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 9, 2017 11:12:16 GMT
Maybe i could drop the marksman to add Ragman, it can help against high ARM. What do you think about it?
It would be:
Karchev
doggy
2x marauders
2x kodiaks
2x devastators
2x min mechs
widomakers
Orin
Ragman
Bokur
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 9, 2017 11:48:18 GMT
Khadorjack -
Karchev is currently one of my two tournament casters, and I've been using him fairly consistently for about 6 months. My recommendation based on my own experience is that you really want to bring at least 6 jacks with him (if you have an expensive jack in the list like Behemoth), otherwise 7 (if using the WGI theme), or 8-9 if just abusing jacks.
I find the key to winning with Karchev is being able to close the lines with your enemy, and piece trade hard and effectively with our cheap jacks. The feat is going to almost always mean you can go up hard if you alpha, or regain and trade up even if you take it on the chin.
My jack package has at least 2 each of Juggernauts (for damage output), Marauders (for knockdown and 10 point jacks), and Kodiaks (for pathfinder and infantry removal with vent steam, and the throws). I find bringing Marauders is a great "fixer" for high def beasts and colossals. I play in an LGS where we always throw down 6-8 pieces of terrain so the pathfinder is essential.
I don't take Orin or a Bokur but don't miss them even in a wormwood matchup. There are some matchups I'll need to avoid without Orin, but that's just how I've designed my pairing (2nd list is currently butcher 3).
Edit: I've tested our expensive jacks with Karchev. I'm never disappointed with Behemoth--very reliable RTW trigger and solo removal. However, since the point cost change I like 2 Destroyers for the extra body, but that's personal preference and not strictly a better choice (no boosted blasts, 3 more points). Ruin is also good. Out of theme, I do line Reinholt for the 2nd karchev knockdown spray...that can help win you games.
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Post by khadorjack on Mar 9, 2017 12:10:33 GMT
Khadorjack - Karchev is currently one of my two tournament casters, and I've been using him fairly consistently for about 6 months. My recommendation based on my own experience is that you really want to bring at least 6 jacks with him (if you have an expensive jack in the list like Behemoth), otherwise 7 (if using the WGI theme), or 8-9 if just abusing jacks. I find the key to winning with Karchev is being able to close the lines with your enemy, and piece trade hard and effectively with our cheap jacks. The feat is going to almost always mean you can go up hard if you alpha, or regain and trade up even if you take it on the chin. My jack package has at least 2 each of Juggernauts (for damage output), Marauders (for knockdown and 10 point jacks), and Kodiaks (for pathfinder and infantry removal with vent steam, and the throws). I find bringing Marauders is a great "fixer" for high def beasts and colossals. I play in an LGS where we always throw down 6-8 pieces of terrain so the pathfinder is essential. I don't take Orin or a Bokur but don't miss them even in a wormwood matchup. There are some matchups I'll need to avoid without Orin, but that's just how I've designed my pairing (2nd list is currently butcher 3). Hi armchair, nice to see you here! Well, as i post befor with the canges i will play 6 heavies+karchev. The marauders and kodiaks for the same reason as you, the devastator because i like to have pieces that are hard to remove and can help other pieces to move thanks to bulldoze. I don't want to drop orin because my other pairing is Irusk2 in theme (also there i play 3 marauders and one juggy), so no anti-magic tech there. This would be my cygnar drop so i would like to avoid things like telekinesis or so.. probabily i could drop the bokur, but i want to try it in order to protect orin and maybe ragman better (i can also sacpawn on mechanics) I have to say i'm really excited about this period in my "gamer life": even if i have very few time to play i'm conquesting a lot of victories and i think i've build (or, better, i'm building) a very nice pair. This is also because of all the help i have received from the previous forum and now here (maybe someone will remember me as the "posting millions of shitty Irusk2 lists everywere" guy). Thank you very much! Edit: i know behemoth is great, but usually i can't let it shine, i don't know... maybe is playstyle. I thought about the gobber, but karchev RAT4 makes me sad. Also, is very annoying to decide between spry things that maybe you will not hit and put Sunder in someone's face (PS also MAT7 sucks) |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 9, 2017 13:18:05 GMT
You can't really go wrong with a Devastator. It's a wonderful jack to bait with...hard to remove but you really do need to deal with it.
I get why you're squeezing in Orin now.
Re double sprays...I don't like committing Karchev his own good self until stuff that can kill him is dead, and on the approach I'm playing him behind other jacks. The gobber is really helping to do work with sprays probably on one crucial turn, and I'm not afraid to boost the spray hit on a crucial model.
Good luck.
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