Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 21, 2017 10:40:02 GMT
Your cavalry example does not work for Gaze. The only things you are required to measure are: 1) If after moving the model is it at the same distance they began/have gotten closer to the Avatar. 2) If they have gone through the free strike zone. Unfortunately it is not how the Gaze works, the entire movement has to be continually closer and closer to the Avatar. All of it counts, not just the starting and finishing position. Of course if a model has a lot of "surplus" SPD it isn't required to measure all the circling around the Avatar, it would just be unsportsmanlike for no reason at all. However, if those inches of movement are scarce and/or there are other models or terrain in the way, some degree of precision and breaking movement into smaller increments may be required, just like any case of moving a model from a position where it's difficult to manoeuver freely.
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 21, 2017 10:53:51 GMT
Your cavalry example does not work for Gaze. The only things you are required to measure are: 1) If after moving the model is it at the same distance they began/have gotten closer to the Avatar. 2) If they have gone through the free strike zone. Unfortunately it is not how the Gaze works, the entire movement has to be continually closer and closer to the Avatar. All of it counts, not just the starting and finishing position. Of course if a model has a lot of "surplus" SPD it isn't required to measure all the circling around the Avatar, it would just be unsportsmanlike for no reason at all. However, if those inches of movement are scarce and/or there are other models or terrain in the way, some degree of precision and breaking movement into smaller increments may be required, just like any case of moving a model from a position where it's difficult to manoeuver freely. Hmmm.... you are correct. Could have sworn it wasn't like that, but live and learn. So you can basicly just go around it in a slowly tightening circle. That's a bit more restricting than i had previously given it credit for. Don't know if that's enough for me to want to use it as it is now, but it's still better than i had previously thought. Ryilan
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 21, 2017 11:59:34 GMT
Unfortunately it is not how the Gaze works, the entire movement has to be continually closer and closer to the Avatar. All of it counts, not just the starting and finishing position. Of course if a model has a lot of "surplus" SPD it isn't required to measure all the circling around the Avatar, it would just be unsportsmanlike for no reason at all. However, if those inches of movement are scarce and/or there are other models or terrain in the way, some degree of precision and breaking movement into smaller increments may be required, just like any case of moving a model from a position where it's difficult to manoeuver freely. Hmmm.... you are correct. Could have sworn it wasn't like that, but live and learn. So you can basicly just go around it in a slowly tightening circle. That's a bit more restricting than i had previously given it credit for. Don't know if that's enough for me to want to use it as it is now, but it's still better than i had previously thought. Ryilan Guy go read the movement rules again. Ffs. The circle no longer needs to be tightening. There is also no rules about how granular your movement needs to be. All it says it's that advancing is straight line in direction of your facing and that movement is absolute. So as long as you can accurately measure the arc you should be able to make the move millimeters at a time
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 21, 2017 12:26:48 GMT
Hmmm.... you are correct. Could have sworn it wasn't like that, but live and learn. So you can basicly just go around it in a slowly tightening circle. That's a bit more restricting than i had previously given it credit for. Don't know if that's enough for me to want to use it as it is now, but it's still better than i had previously thought. Ryilan Guy go read the movement rules again. Ffs. The circle no longer needs to be tightening. There is also no rules about how granular your movement needs to be. All it says it's that advancing is straight line in direction of your facing and that movement is absolute. So as long as you can accurately measure the arc you should be able to make the move millimeters at a time Please calm down. I was under the impression Cyel was correct due finding similar conclusions online. But you are correct. Gaze is still more restricting than i initially gave it credit for though. In any case, a point reduction might be enough to sway me to include it more. I think 3 points is probably enough. 18 is still a bit too much imho, but 16 is too cheap. Ryilan
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 21, 2017 14:53:03 GMT
I apologize for getting heated up. A points reduction or a change in what "warjack allotment" lets you spend the points on would go to making the avatar be seen in more lists. I do use him in one list and am likely to swap him out right now.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 21, 2017 19:27:06 GMT
completely avoiding the avatar by moving circular around it is a real dick thing to do. By that logic using a magical weapon to ignore passage is also a dick move. It's not. You are using an ability to try and restrict your opponents actions and mobility. Ignoring that ability as much as you can is not a dick move, it's playing the game. Your cavalry example does not work for Gaze. The only things you are required to measure are: 1) If after moving the model is it at the same distance they began/have gotten closer to the Avatar.2) If they have gone through the free strike zone. That's it. You do not have the right to demand they check inch after inch. There is such a thing as sportsmanship. We are all playing this game to have fun. Ryilan Negative, you have to move closer or stay the same at all successive points along your move path. So his inch by inch thing IS appropriate, for those trying to circle around him while maintaining maximum distance. If they're clearly moving toward him, not so much. That said, he was also advocating being a massive coont and using gaze to attack the clock, forcing north of 40 seconds per opponent's model caught in the ability just by demanding all moves suddenly being inch by inch within the gaze. It's that second notion that's being rejected here. Of course, herein, again, lies the real problem with gaze and therefore the Avatar(as gaze is pretty much all he has now that eye and power up exist): While it has theoretical uses, it's such a generally impotent, unrestrictive denial ability that someone is legit using "burns enemy clock time" as a selling point. So does feora 1 with fire resolution, but I never hear about that part because OH MY GOD EVERY SOLDIER I BROUGHT IS BURNING! It's much more fun, and most of the time much more impactful.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jun 21, 2017 19:30:11 GMT
How to get past Avatar with gaze on:
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 21, 2017 19:50:53 GMT
By that logic using a magical weapon to ignore passage is also a dick move. It's not. You are using an ability to try and restrict your opponents actions and mobility. Ignoring that ability as much as you can is not a dick move, it's playing the game. Your cavalry example does not work for Gaze. The only things you are required to measure are: 1) If after moving the model is it at the same distance they began/have gotten closer to the Avatar.2) If they have gone through the free strike zone. That's it. You do not have the right to demand they check inch after inch. There is such a thing as sportsmanship. We are all playing this game to have fun. Ryilan Negative, you have to move closer or stay the same at all successive points along your move path. So his inch by inch thing IS appropriate, for those trying to circle around him while maintaining maximum distance. If they're clearly moving toward him, not so much. That said, he was also advocating being a massive coont and using gaze to attack the clock, forcing north of 40 seconds per opponent's model caught in the ability just by demanding all moves suddenly being inch by inch within the gaze. It's that second notion that's being rejected here. Of course, herein, again, lies the real problem with gaze and therefore the Avatar(as gaze is pretty much all he has now that eye and power up exist): While it has theoretical uses, it's such a generally impotent, unrestrictive denial ability that someone is legit using "burns enemy clock time" as a selling point. So does feora 1 with fire resolution, but I never hear about that part because OH MY GOD EVERY SOLDIER I BROUGHT IS BURNING! It's much more fun, and most of the time much more impactful. I know, we had just settled that issue No more talking about how Gaze currently works now. We've pretty definitivly defined what Gaze does. Let's bring the focus back to what can be done to fix the avatar rather than what it currently does. Would the avatar be worth the 20 points if Gaze said moves directly towards the avatar? Ryilan
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 21, 2017 20:16:41 GMT
I actually think gaze is fine as is. I am pretty ok with making him 18 points. I feel like 17 is too cheap for his base stats.
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Post by claptrap on Jun 21, 2017 21:53:14 GMT
I think some of the confusion about how Gaze works is due to it's similarity to Harbinger's feat. For Harby, it's 'ends closer than it began' for Gaze it's 'advance only toward'.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 21, 2017 23:47:15 GMT
Part of what makes face so good IMO is the fact that it IS NOT directly toward. Directly toward makes your opened choices easier and take less time. Just "toward" by itself however forces your opponent to think a loot more of how he can move his models. It adds to stress, it's more psychological impact then table too Impact (though the tabletop impact is pretty significant too.) Forcing your opponent think more, asking them hard questions and leaving them with more important choices to make can really throw a wrench into people's plans.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Jun 22, 2017 2:47:53 GMT
So his inch by inch thing IS appropriate, for those trying to circle around him while maintaining maximum distance. If they're clearly moving toward him, not so much. That said, he was also advocating being a massive coont and using gaze to attack the clock, forcing north of 40 seconds per opponent's model caught in the ability just by demanding all moves suddenly being inch by inch within the gaze. It's that second notion that's being rejected here. I'm also rejecting the first notion. Quoting Wolfbane: "There is also no rules about how granular your movement needs to be. All it says it's that advancing is straight line in direction of your facing and that movement is absolute. So as long as you can accurately measure the arc you should be able to make the move millimeters at a time." The inch-by-inch thing is not appropriate. RE current topic: I've come around on a point decrease due to the inconvenience of being non-BG, mainly because the casters that ignore the cons and make the most out of the pros (Feora1, Reznik2, Thyra, etc) aren't topping the faction. Thyra in particular came out way lower than I thought in the opening months of the edition. 18 sounds ok.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 22, 2017 3:12:10 GMT
Also, those lists that are playing thyra well are largely, to my knowledge, in the Flameguard theme.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 22, 2017 6:52:27 GMT
I've tried Thyra out of theme with the Avatar and he loves it. For some reason, people generally aren't prepared for an ARM 21 heavy with stealth, no shooting and no spells.
Mind you, I do need to practice that list some more, because I'm not used to running that much infantry.
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Post by claptrap on Jun 22, 2017 18:17:30 GMT
There are a lot of benefits to running Thrya in Flameguard theme, you're taking the units she would take anyway, free Nicea and Ambushing Daughters are just too good.
Which is sad, because the Avatar works so well with her out of theme, and I really can't justify running her out of theme.
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