spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 15, 2017 22:34:54 GMT
EoT is vulnerable to Backlash and Cortex burning, does not have native spell immunity, does not generate caster-indeoendant focus. So it's, as usual, not a straight upgrade. It's a side-grade. I grant, EoT is very good and many folks prefer his side of the fence right now. But these comparisons are bias-laden. To further your point EoT cannot fit into Creator's Might unless you're running Malekus and that's a pretty big knock against him. The Avatar does slot into some pretty good roles withing CM as a flank holder or all around bad ass. He can't be ignored either. His damage output is such that even colossals give him a wide berth. Even if you shoot his arms off, he has enough MAT and P&S to be a direct threat to the caster. Indeed, I've killed a lightly damaged ARM 17 DEF 14 caster with an armless Avatar. Yes, he's no tougher than an Indictor and yes, he's no faster than a Reckoner and Yes, he's less focus efficient than a Sanctifier, but where else are you going to find a package that actually has all three outside of a colossal? Saying that, I like him, but I'm not against him getting buffed.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 15, 2017 23:37:48 GMT
For sure he's not total deadweight. He's just a non-optimized use of points in every possible list. This sounds like some pretty vicious hyperbole. Please explicate. It's far from hyperbole. Literally every single list you could put the Avatar in, there is always something better to spend those 20 points on. Usually Eye of Truth, but sometimes other stuff. He's never the worst choice, but he's also never the best choice. Ideally, every single game piece would have at least a couple potential lists where it is the optimal choice.
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Post by paradox on Jun 16, 2017 0:13:47 GMT
This sounds like some pretty vicious hyperbole. Please explicate. It's far from hyperbole. Literally every single list you could put the Avatar in, there is always something better to spend those 20 points on. Usually Eye of Truth, but sometimes other stuff. He's never the worst choice, but he's also never the best choice. Ideally, every single game piece would have at least a couple potential lists where it is the optimal choice. I really feel Feora1, for example, reallyvlikes Avatar. Gaze really feeds into her preferred field position, and she appreciates not having to feed it focus. So off the cuff Im pretty confident there's one case at least. Id also agree RE Creator's Might lists and Thyra, both noted above. Im also willing to bet ToM has some fun tricks to try. But at base, Avatar still has +1 MAT and +1 PS for both melee weapons. So any Boundless Charge gets more and better melee from him.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 18, 2017 3:43:21 GMT
Many casters appreciate not having to feed it focus. What they don't appreciate is having to spend their ~28-30 WJ points on jacks and then also spend 20 points on the Avatar. Spending ~50% of your points on jacks should only be done by casters who can actually support a lot of jacks, who have battle group focused abilities and thus also do not want the Avatar.
As for Thyra in Creator's Might, I think that's just a suboptimal way to run Thyra in the first place. Thyra force multiplies better with infantry, so she wants minimal jacks overall. I'd rather have another infantry unit and a solo instead of the Avatar in that case.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 18, 2017 5:11:25 GMT
So in essence the Avatar should be treated as another BE? A super expensive BE? A melee battle engine? One that can be crippled?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 18, 2017 5:19:44 GMT
a single light jack and the Avatar can secure up an entire flank for almost a guaranteed 2 rounds of combat. It's this type of play that you have to consider when pushing the avatar into a group, thanks to it taking up the same amount of points as a full infantry unit + UA. Casters that would run optimally with the Avatar are ones that like to play a little forward or push from one side of the board. That's why, if you want to fix the Avatar to make it more playable, what you need to consider is what it needs to do its flank tanking job. The 8 inch gaze is great at keeping your regular models from charging through. However, it only counts on activation and well, lets admit, there are plenty of models that can activate outside 8 inches and still get around the gaze. Gaze should be set up as "upon entering." Something like Retalitory Strike or Defensive Strike would then be all the Avatar needed to be a 20 pt construct that doesn't receive the WJ battlegroup benefits.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 18, 2017 5:47:31 GMT
Feora1 imho is the best caster for the Avatar, simply because Blazing Effigy doesn't require the effected jack be in her BG. Having a focus independent jack that can do some control (combined with firewall especially) is a real boon to her playability.
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Post by paradox on Jun 18, 2017 12:57:45 GMT
So in essence the Avatar should be treated as another BE? A super expensive BE? A melee battle engine? One that can be crippled? Hardly whats being said. You can think of its points expendature like a BE. Hardly novel, considering the recent CID saw many players compare the BE to warjack options. But if that doesnt help you, I also mention that it could be compared to a marshalled heavy or one on a jr. Its non-caster BG there too. And most heavies + solo cost in the Avatars range. Tl; dr: yeah, sure.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 18, 2017 13:09:45 GMT
Feora1 imho is the best caster for the Avatar, simply because Blazing Effigy doesn't require the effected jack be in her BG. Having a focus independent jack that can do some control (combined with firewall especially) is a real boon to her playability. Feora's 1 and 3, Kreoss 1, Harbinger, Sevvy 1, Reznik 2, Thyra, and to a lesser extent, Durst and Testament* can all play with the Avatar and get work done. I just never reach for him anyway unless I want to play the model just because. *Hallowed Avenger does not require a battlegroup warjack.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 18, 2017 16:26:47 GMT
eh, I'd rather have a jack in Feora 3's, because of redline. A sanctifier is cheaper and takes redline really well, giving it similar damage outputs to the avatar with less cost and a longer threat.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 18, 2017 16:33:34 GMT
Feora1 imho is the best caster for the Avatar, simply because Blazing Effigy doesn't require the effected jack be in her BG. Having a focus independent jack that can do some control (combined with firewall especially) is a real boon to her playability. KREOSS 3 would like to trhrow down for that title next wrestlemania
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 18, 2017 16:38:31 GMT
Feora1 imho is the best caster for the Avatar, simply because Blazing Effigy doesn't require the effected jack be in her BG. Having a focus independent jack that can do some control (combined with firewall especially) is a real boon to her playability. KREOSS 3 would like to trhrow down for that title next wrestlemania If Kreoss3 didn't want to run double vengers in theme so much, I'd agree with you
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 18, 2017 19:41:15 GMT
Even though I haven't been finding a place for the Avatar in my mk3 lists so far, now it is exactly what I am looking for. My new Sevvy 1 list looks like that: Theme: The Creator's Might (Severius 1) Grand Scrutator Severius [+28] - Blessing of Vengeance [13] - Reckoner [16] - Reckoner [16] Avatar of Menoth [20] Vessel of Judgment [18] Initiate Tristan Durant [0(4)] - Redeemer [11] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] I chose the Avatar for many reasons -I wanted another close combat piece that did not need Sevvy's Focus. Sevvy has great spells to cast and upkeep and in this army all warjacks can be fuelled without his Focus. -It is Choir independent (excellent MAT and POW with Eye of Menoth, built in spell immunity, not easy to damage with shooting) -With Defender's Ward it is extrmely hard and it can't be debuffed with spells like Parasite and DW can't be removed with spells like Hex Blast -Instead of flanking I can go right ahead in the middle against many armies. Units used for jamming will find it difficult to remove it and go around it due to Menoth's Gaze and it will hopefully keep my jacks shoting longer. All in all I think Avatar will do better in this army than any other jack and, to my surprise I found I really like the choice to include him. In one test battle it did great so far, tying up and surviving fight against a unit of Ferox and a unit of Karax. More battles coming on Saturday with a CiD tournament so I will let you know if my assumptions were right . The additional bonus will be the Vessel's ranged repair ability, to bring the Avatar's systems back online even if it strays from the main group.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 18, 2017 22:45:38 GMT
So in essence the Avatar should be treated as another BE? A super expensive BE? A melee battle engine? One that can be crippled? Hardly whats being said. You can think of its points expendature like a BE. Hardly novel, considering the recent CID saw many players compare the BE to warjack options. But if that doesnt help you, I also mention that it could be compared to a marshalled heavy or one on a jr. Its non-caster BG there too. And most heavies + solo cost in the Avatars range. Tl; dr: yeah, sure. That doesn't exactly help the Avatar much, since most juniors don't see much play in mk3 either. For many of the same reasons.
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Post by paradox on Jun 18, 2017 23:19:48 GMT
Hardly whats being said. You can think of its points expendature like a BE. Hardly novel, considering the recent CID saw many players compare the BE to warjack options. But if that doesnt help you, I also mention that it could be compared to a marshalled heavy or one on a jr. Its non-caster BG there too. And most heavies + solo cost in the Avatars range. Tl; dr: yeah, sure. That doesn't exactly help the Avatar much, since most juniors don't see much play in mk3 either. For many of the same reasons. Locally, it's definitely the opposite around here.
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