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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 14, 2017 13:27:39 GMT
Unless i'm missing something, just ranged right ? Force barrier only modifies defense against Ranged attack rolls, not magic attack rolls. Unless did i miss where MK3 consolidated those? I don't think i did, but frankly, i've not kept as "up" on the rules this edition. yeah its just ranged, I was getting confused
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 14, 2017 13:32:22 GMT
She doesn't have any veteran ability buffs because CoI grants that to the leader with additional cards. That makes sense.
I imagine that when a CoI model is pitched as playable in WMH, we should just assume they mean legal instead. Like, you can technically play with the model, it works and everything, but it's not going to be a game changer.
Honestly, that's okay with me. CoI is a narrative thing, and won't have the balance of WMH. For players who actually like that, they probably won't mind playing Keller in a bigger game, even if she's just an OK combat solo.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 14, 2017 13:54:07 GMT
I would actually be fine if she had full stormblade capabilities other than full granadier capabilities.
The problem is that, being a solo, she doesn't benefit from the leader bubble, nor from the assault of the UA, so she is actually quite a bit worse than a Stormblade grunt.
A Stormblade Grunt (1,66 pt) plus a granadier (2,33 pt) are exactly worth 4 points, and not only are two dudes, but also she isn't worth a full Stormblade, so basically she is not very worth it.
If she had +2 POW and RNG on the sword and Assault integrated into her main stat (or if she was a Stormblade weapon Attachment, so benefitting from them being part of the unit) than I would consider her.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jul 14, 2017 14:23:44 GMT
She doesn't have any veteran ability buffs because CoI grants that to the leader with additional cards. That makes sense. I imagine that when a CoI model is pitched as playable in WMH, we should just assume they mean legal instead. Like, you can technically play with the model, it works and everything, but it's not going to be a game changer. Honestly, that's okay with me. CoI is a narrative thing, and won't have the balance of WMH. For players who actually like that, they probably won't mind playing Keller in a bigger game, even if she's just an OK combat solo. I'd almost prefer them be separate games then... i mean, in another thread we were just talking about SKU bloat basically necessitating balance by themes. If models designed for CoI are being parachuted into WM as "legal" but probably not "good" because of the different systems, then what's the point of making them WM/H legal? Its exacerbating the future proofing of SKU bloat affecting balance out of theme without adding anything of value. Note: assuming your stance above is how most models will look - legal, but not great or game changing. I think we both recognize there's potential on the other side of that fence. Honestly so far there's not much about Company of Iron i find intriguing, but man, if PP were to do their version of Mordheim and put a campaign exp system in it, and let me customize the creation of an entire warband, holy shit, here's my bank account # and routing #, you take what you think is fair and send me the product for it *slobbers like Homer Simpson*. I would eat that shit up in a heartbeat. I know CoI has elements of that, but it doesn't quite hit the full mark for me as it stands. There is another part of me that wonders if Unbound and CoI aren't soft tests of alternating activations for a future edition of WM.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 14, 2017 14:58:19 GMT
Oh no, Cygnar got a balanced model Woe and despair (it's a joke!) I think it's pretty interesting but as mentioned; She needs a way to either benefit from the existing "bonus" rules or just have them innately. I really expect this model should have assault. Quick work with a 4" zap is pretty funny. It's a nerfed version of e-leap that I'm perfectly okay with. The grenades are also pretty cool. But yeah, in a faction of top-notch. Average is just not as impressive. Does anyone have an image of Agata (or w/e the pig's name is)?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jul 14, 2017 15:01:58 GMT
If quickwork was berserk, i'd dig her in both COI and WM builds, though i understand how you probably have to be careful about doling out too many additional attack generating abilities in CoI.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 14, 2017 15:05:28 GMT
She doesn't have any veteran ability buffs because CoI grants that to the leader with additional cards. That makes sense. I imagine that when a CoI model is pitched as playable in WMH, we should just assume they mean legal instead. Like, you can technically play with the model, it works and everything, but it's not going to be a game changer. Honestly, that's okay with me. CoI is a narrative thing, and won't have the balance of WMH. For players who actually like that, they probably won't mind playing Keller in a bigger game, even if she's just an OK combat solo. I'd almost prefer them be separate games then... i mean, in another thread we were just talking about SKU bloat basically necessitating balance by themes. If models designed for CoI are being parachuted into WM as "legal" but probably not "good" because of the different systems, then what's the point of making them WM/H legal? Its exacerbating the future proofing of SKU bloat affecting balance out of theme without adding anything of value. Note: assuming your stance above is how most models will look - legal, but not great or game changing. I think we both recognize there's potential on the other side of that fence. I don't think there will ever be combat solo bloat like with other model types. Model bloat is an issue when it comes to units, specialized jacks, and support. As it is, Keller will be in competition with Accosta. You would only bring either of them if you want independant solos with combat skills. In a podcast recently (Turn Extension), Hungerford talked a bit about CoI and Unbound for Mk3. An idea he threw out for consideration was a potential league where games played in CoI, WMH, and Unbound could all contribute to a League. It would be narrative based, because CoI and Unbound are narrative, but it makes sense that they want models to be transferable. I don't think it will hurt WMH to have a solo or two in each faction like Keller. She isn't bad, per se. She trades in some raw power of the stormblade for some of the utility of a stormsmith. I'd cost her at 4 points pretty fairly. She's just not a support solo. We all just have to accept that WMH has a narrative side, and when you step into CoI, that's where you are. Don't expect that everything is perfectly balanced. Have some fun with a cool looking models, and skirmish with some friends. I just want to keep an open mind about CoI. I really hope it will be a good way to draw in new players.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 14, 2017 15:06:35 GMT
If she had +2 POW and RNG on the sword and Assault integrated into her main stat (or if she was a Stormblade weapon Attachment, so benefitting from them being part of the unit) than I would consider her. Absolutely not trying to start a debate or a fight. But she's already pow 13. The "cap" for light beasts/jacks is 13. going up to pow 15 on a small based solo is extremely high. I don't know every heavy infantry but most are base 13 or less as well. 15 + a pow 12 or 13 assault shot + quick work. That's a ton for a 4 point small based solo. There are psuedo-dragoons with less or equal damage output at 2x the cost.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 14, 2017 15:24:08 GMT
Oh no, Cygnar got a balanced model Woe and despair (it's a joke!) I think it's pretty interesting but as mentioned; She needs a way to either benefit from the existing "bonus" rules or just have them innately. I really expect this model should have assault. Quick work with a 4" zap is pretty funny. It's a nerfed version of e-leap that I'm perfectly okay with. The grenades are also pretty cool. But yeah, in a faction of top-notch. Average is just not as impressive. Does anyone have an image of Agata (or w/e the pig's name is)? I demand the finer models in life #Swanprivilege
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jul 14, 2017 15:36:11 GMT
I'd almost prefer them be separate games then... i mean, in another thread we were just talking about SKU bloat basically necessitating balance by themes. If models designed for CoI are being parachuted into WM as "legal" but probably not "good" because of the different systems, then what's the point of making them WM/H legal? Its exacerbating the future proofing of SKU bloat affecting balance out of theme without adding anything of value. Note: assuming your stance above is how most models will look - legal, but not great or game changing. I think we both recognize there's potential on the other side of that fence. I don't think there will ever be combat solo bloat like with other model types. Model bloat is an issue when it comes to units, specialized jacks, and support. As it is, Keller will be in competition with Accosta. You would only bring either of them if you want independant solos with combat skills. In a podcast recently (Turn Extension), Hungerford talked a bit about CoI and Unbound for Mk3. An idea he threw out for consideration was a potential league where games played in CoI, WMH, and Unbound could all contribute to a League. It would be narrative based, because CoI and Unbound are narrative, but it makes sense that they want models to be transferable. I don't think it will hurt WMH to have a solo or two in each faction like Keller. She isn't bad, per se. She trades in some raw power of the stormblade for some of the utility of a stormsmith. I'd cost her at 4 points pretty fairly. She's just not a support solo. We all just have to accept that WMH has a narrative side, and when you step into CoI, that's where you are. Don't expect that everything is perfectly balanced. Have some fun with a cool looking models, and skirmish with some friends. I just want to keep an open mind about CoI. I really hope it will be a good way to draw in new players. I agree with literally everything except the first sentence. Model bloat is model bloat regardless of vector or type. I wrote a big long thing, but meh, its really not an interesting enough debate to get into. My thing with keller is this: she's underwhelming in WM, which means she's bound for obscurity in WM, which means at best she's a net neutral in terms of the possibility of being able to use her in WM. Just because you can take models designed for COI in WM isn't a net positive and / or impressive to me if they are underwhelming and shelf bound. Its interesting that they are considering different scales of their game narrative vs. competitive. I'm not sure i agree that unbound / COI are of necessity narrative, but WM/H isn't, unless that is by purposeful choice. Meaning i don't think there's anything inherent in small scale skirmish or large scale battle formats that are more or less narrative than the scale of WM/H de facto, but rather this is a choice. For instance: my car's trunk is climate controlled (not even kidding), and this is listed as a selling feature. Perhaps it is for someone who transports organs in corner case in a hot climate, or a particularly conscientious kidnapper, but for me, it's functionally useless and i could care less. If something is functionally useless to me, just because it exists and is a possibility that i might use it on the off chance i need to locomote a kidney somewhere doesn't make it a selling feature or net positive to me. (silly example on purpose). I totally agree with the rest of your points.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 14, 2017 18:51:44 GMT
If she had +2 POW and RNG on the sword and Assault integrated into her main stat (or if she was a Stormblade weapon Attachment, so benefitting from them being part of the unit) than I would consider her. Absolutely not trying to start a debate or a fight. But she's already pow 13. The "cap" for light beasts/jacks is 13. going up to pow 15 on a small based solo is extremely high. I don't know every heavy infantry but most are base 13 or less as well. 15 + a pow 12 or 13 assault shot + quick work. That's a ton for a 4 point small based solo. There are psuedo-dragoons with less or equal damage output at 2x the cost. It's simple internal balance. A Stormblade costs 1,66 points and has exactly the same stats, except it also has those other things (POW 15, RNG 6, Assault). A Stormsmith Granadiers has the other stats and weapons, and costs 2,33 points. A Stormblade grunt + A granadier grunt cost exactly 4 points, but they are two models (so able to use their weapons better) and the Stormblade is better at melee. Why should I take her over them? And that considering that granadiers aren't particulary appreciated already, and Stormblades work only with ton of support on them, support that she is not going to get not being a Stormblade. As you can see, only looking at stats and comparing it with other different things (like light beasts) doesn't give a clear state of art (apples and oranges). She does the work exactly of an un-appreciated grunt plus half of what another support-dependant grunt does, while costing the full cost of both. She could be exactly like she is, if only was a Stormblade Weapon Attachment (so getting everything Stormblades grunts get), but as it is, I don't see her as particulary interesting.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jul 28, 2017 17:25:58 GMT
I'm not arguing that Keller is going to be a big gamer changer. In fact, how many solos usually are? But I think Quick Work with the grenades is pretty sweet. Being able to charge then chuck a grenade is a pretty big deal. It gives the grenades an additional 3" of threat, which, considering the control elements of the grenades, is pretty important.
If all Keller ever does is charge a model, kill it, then throw a -2 speed grenade, she's prolly earned her points back.
This isn't to suggest she's a model you'll always be taking, nor ever be taking (because, honestly, Stormblades and Stormsmith grenadiers are never taken now, and she's a combination of two untaken things) but I think to suggest that her abilities are totally without any merit is a mistake.
Also, her model is excellent and makes me sad that Maddox's model is such shite.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jul 28, 2017 17:28:28 GMT
Interesting that she doesn't have cumbersome like most grenade solos. Damn, I hadn't even considered that. That's....pretty sweet.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 28, 2017 17:41:17 GMT
Yeah, Keller is fine for a 4 point solo. I would have liked a unique grenade ammo type, though. She's a pure combo of Stormsmith Grenadiers and Stormblades. Just... not super exciting.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 28, 2017 19:20:46 GMT
She looks amazing in CoI though. It will be a game that all the underloved Solos in Warmachine will really enjoy.
One thing CoI values is a variety of choice. She's also pretty resilient and has a variety of choices on top of that.
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