|
Post by Azahul on May 19, 2020 1:35:32 GMT
Thanks for your batreps! Always a nice read. Would you like to talk about Helga2? Her strenghts, her weaknesses, which models to run with her...? Thanks in advance ZK For sure I've still got one last battle report to do from the tournament (hopefully getting to it tomorrow), but I'll do a big rundown then. For a quick spoiler, I do think her biggest weakness is that none of the stuff she brings to support her list is all that compelling, which is why my list ended up the way it did and doesn't really capitalising on any part of her kit beyond her personal output. That said, if you build a solid, all-round list with her, she doesn't have much in the way of poor match-ups, and she can do a lot of heavy lifting herself.
|
|
|
Post by custardboy on May 19, 2020 6:02:46 GMT
She's so damn weird on that stuff. Lots of things that are almost brilliant but don't quite click. Everything I've tried that seems great in theory just isn't that brilliant on the table. It's almost like she's designed for pieces that don't exist, like every Farrow caster
|
|
|
Post by zwergenkrieger on May 19, 2020 7:39:44 GMT
She's so damn weird on that stuff. Lots of things that are almost brilliant but don't quite click. Everything I've tried that seems great in theory just isn't that brilliant on the table. It's almost like she's designed for pieces that don't exist, like every Farrow caster That. Exactly that. (the only exceptions are Dr. Arkadius and Lord Carver, though I feel they both shine in WWFF and not in Thornfall)
That´s the reason I refuse to buy Farrow stuff right now because after a short time I regularly become dissapointed.
|
|
|
Post by custardboy on May 19, 2020 8:15:54 GMT
Arkadius is happy enough because what he wants to do is to is trade high output pieces across the board which is perfect for war hogs and primal.
Carver I wouldn't say likes our pieces that much. He wants high armour beasts where ours are just OK, he doesn't want primal because he's trying to play a denial game, he grants overtake which is redundant, and wants his support to be Farrow to use his feat and veteran leader.
I had a game this morning with Carver so I'm a bit rambly haha
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on May 20, 2020 1:30:58 GMT
She's so damn weird on that stuff. Lots of things that are almost brilliant but don't quite click. Everything I've tried that seems great in theory just isn't that brilliant on the table. It's almost like she's designed for pieces that don't exist, like every Farrow caster I actually think the list I ended up with clicks pretty much perfectly. The hard thing to acknowledge with her isn't that she wants to support pieces that don't exist, but more that she's a super solo and needs an army that supports her rather than the other way around. That's a new style of player for Minions (arguably excepting Barnabus2, but he's still got enough of a support kit that you take pieces with him more for what they bring for him than the other way around).
|
|
|
Post by custardboy on May 20, 2020 2:00:30 GMT
I'm very used to that kind of caster, my favourite is the twins I just find that Helga2 isn't enough of a supersolo to warrant building the army to support her. She only really does her personal work on her feat turn (or charging a caster to close the game) and doesn't require much help to do that bit. Not to say she isn't GOOD. She's certainly good. But I do find that most of her tech just doesn't quite work with what's available- except our star War Hogs. Two things I've been wanting to try are the gatorman witch doctor and Edrea and Lynus. I find there's usually 1-3 obstructions on the board somewhere. I was thinking if it's central, then Helga being able to smash and scoot with Ghostly would give her a good, consistent impact over the game. If there's an obstruction on the flank, you can have a road hog with rapport over there doing the same. Edrea and Lynus are quite poor as we all know, but I find I have bellows crew in most of my lists anyway as my zone scorer/contester. So 3 extra points to give Helga/archons precision strike seems decent, and you have a cloud answer without a mist speaker. I wouldn't consider them with other casters but maybe here. Have you had a go with those two?
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on May 20, 2020 4:12:28 GMT
I'm very used to that kind of caster, my favourite is the twins I just find that Helga2 isn't enough of a supersolo to warrant building the army to support her. She only really does her personal work on her feat turn (or charging a caster to close the game) and doesn't require much help to do that bit. Not to say she isn't GOOD. She's certainly good. But I do find that most of her tech just doesn't quite work with what's available- except our star War Hogs. Two things I've been wanting to try are the gatorman witch doctor and Edrea and Lynus. I find there's usually 1-3 obstructions on the board somewhere. I was thinking if it's central, then Helga being able to smash and scoot with Ghostly would give her a good, consistent impact over the game. If there's an obstruction on the flank, you can have a road hog with rapport over there doing the same. Edrea and Lynus are quite poor as we all know, but I find I have bellows crew in most of my lists anyway as my zone scorer/contester. So 3 extra points to give Helga/archons precision strike seems decent, and you have a cloud answer without a mist speaker. I wouldn't consider them with other casters but maybe here. Have you had a go with those two? I can't say I have. My gut instinct would be to rebel against bringing a Witch Doctor in a list where near-everyone has Pathfinder. I was already annoyed in my early Helga2 testing with having to bring Boomhowler2 to help the Hermit out, in spite of already having a large amount of Reposition, so I wouldn't want to go back to that sort of inefficiency when there are so many tempting choices available. And Lynus and Edrea haven't crossed my mind, I don't think I've had a situation where Precision Strike would be relevant yet. Helga pretty consistently deletes whatever she touches, and it's pretty unreliable tech in general. Almost all the utility is against Warjacks only, Warbeasts can just be healed fairly easily (unless your opponent lacks the tools to kill a Void Archon within 5" of their heavy/Gargantuan, which is plausible but not easy) if they survive, and otherwise you're just trying to cripple Shields/Movement for other models because Helga doesn't really care about Shields to begin with and certainly doesn't have a reason to care whether a Warjack's Movement is active or not.
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on May 20, 2020 4:37:07 GMT
Ok, now to finish up the Vassal tournament. I was into the finals against the other undefeated player, a Protectorate player running a Cyrenia/Durst player. I was pretty familiar with how this worked, Durst was only to handle cornercase match-ups (Crucible Guard I think?), Cyrenia was the drop into everything else. The basic game plan would be to run Avatar with Inviolable Resolve up to within 8" of some important models, Gaze them, and drop a house in front of Avatar so that nothing could get into melee with him. Sure enough, my opponent went with Cyrenia, running the following: Cyrenia -Sanctifier -Dervish -Dervish -Hierophant Avatar of Menoth Initiates Initiates Initiates Min Choir Menite Archon Menite Archon Champion Champion Allegiant Allegiant Covenant of Menoth Vassal Mechanik Deployment My opponent won the starting roll and took first. I took a table side that would let me bunker up with clouds strung between the two forests. He deployed with Avatar on the left, Sanctifier on the right, and a Dervish and one of each of the combat solos on each flank. I deployed Helga staggered towards the left, since I figured she was the best equipped to take out the Avatar. Both Gremlin Swarms and Dhunian Archons deployed with her, and both War Hogs were kept within 6". With my opponent having no shooting to speak of, I deployed a Valkyrie unit out on each flank to run up to the zones. I set up my lesser Warlocks on the right flank, because I figured Brine would be best off going after the Sanctifier, and gave each flank a Void Archon. Protectorate Turn 1 Cyrenia received Harmonius Exaltation from the Hierophant. She put Inviolable Resolve on the Avatar, cast Dash, and everything ran. Pigs Turn 1 Helga put Primed on herself, Rapport on the right-hand War Hog so that it could run way off onto the right flank without worrying about Control, and moved up behind the forest to play cat-and-mouse with the Champion/Archon pair on that flank. She moved into the Champion's threat range, but not the Archon's, and put a single Gremlin Swarm up to block the Champion's landing zone. Both Dhunian Archons made sure to be in range to make getting rid of the Gremlin Swarms a difficult prospect. Mire advanced, used a single cloud to block LOS for the Menite Archon on the right, and gave Weald Secrets to Brine. Everything else ran up, mostly keeping outside of threat ranges. Protectorate Turn 2 Sure enough, Avatar ran forward and used Gaze to catch Helga. Cyrenia advanced, threw a Rock Wall in front of the Avatar, and Feated. Everything else ran up, with Initiates and Allegiants using Shifting Sands Stance to bookend the formation. A Menite Archon jumped onto his flag, and the rest of the list ran up to put as much scenario pressure on as possible. Pigs Turn 2 I think I had Mire a little out of position, he just wasn't close enough to get up and drop a cloud to block Helga's LOS to Avatar and free her from Gaze. That was fine, I figured, because I was reasonably sure that Helga could trash the Avatar and get away safely. She could use the Irresistible Force animus to gain Bulldoze and push the Allegiant on the right-hand side of the wall away, giving her a landing zone. I just needed to reduce the armour a little so that she could consistently kill it. A Dhunian Archon was able to charge in, land on the other side of the wall, and get the Dispel, so I went for that. She charged in, needed a 5 to hit thanks to Cyrenia's Feat, and naturally rolled a 4. Damn. As far as I could tell, there was no way to get the Void Archon into the Avatar without copping a million free strikes or killing something. I decided to try killing something. The Void charged the Vassal Mechanik sitting on my flag, killed him, and Void Walked behind the Menite Archon/Avatar to apply Dark Shroud. Unfortunately, in making sure the Dhunian Archon wouldn't block Helga's charge lane, I'd revealed her landing zone. The Menite Archon advanced to block it off. I tried to clear out the Allegiant with a War Hog but naturally missed the attacks because of its Def 20 under Cyrenia's Feat (it moved away from the first swing, the War Hog killed an Initiate to Overtake back into melee, still flubbed the second). At that point I conceded. I was dug into a pretty deep hole and didn't have a way to get my Warlock to safety, and at minimum I'd just offered up a third of my army for no gain. I don't like to concede games, but Vassal isn't an amazing way to play and the result seemed a foregone conclusion so there didn't seem much point in dragging it out. This picture's a bit of a mess, but goes to show all the ridiculous vectors going at that moment. A disappointing anti-climax to the event, but sadly that's just the nature of that Cyrenia list I think. It throws itself down your throat and you can either solve the problem or you can't. It is a little frustrating, because in this particular case I did have a solution that just involved landing a 5+, but those 20% odds to miss do creep in... something like 20% of the time I imagine. I don't often see a game swing so hard on just one dice roll though, it was almost impressive how much it changed things. On even below average rolls Helga probably kills the Avatar and Menite Archon and should be able to scoot to safety (it would depend a little on how my opponent used his Feat moves, I might have had to just content myself with the Avatar if he started trying to block Helga in to keep her from sprinting away), and I'd be able to remove a few Initiates and other pieces with the rest of my list. Of course, the match-up itself will still be a little problematic going forward, because in future my opponent will no doubt use Initiates to anchor both ends of his formation instead of relying on an Allegiant who can be bulldozed for one. Ideally I'd need to find a way to ride out the Feat turn without losing on scenario, because once models lose the ability to move up and fill in for the ones that do die it becomes actually possible to unpick.
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on May 20, 2020 5:08:04 GMT
Ok, onto that Helga2 talk I promised zwergenkrieger. I'm honestly still a bit bewildered by her. Not so much when I have her on the table, but I can't really imagine a good list pair for her. If there's one thing she absolutely cannot handle, it's probably fast, hard-hitting infantry, so I guess a Jaga-Jaga double Sacral Vault build might work? I can see it leading to a bit of list chicken, but I can't imagine much in the pig stable. Arkadius is probably the best bet, but then he'll also handle basically all of her match-ups too... The big elements going for Helga are her headline abilities, i.e. her personal hitting power and her hit-and-run aspect. I have had a lot of games with her where I have been able to take a big piece or two from my opponent and not give anything in return. I've even had games where I've dismantled basically the entire enemy list over two or three turns without losing much of anything. At P+S 20 before any outside models get involved, she can crunch her way through just about anything the enemy puts in front of her and still likely have a Fury or two for Transfers after scooting away. She also fixes accuracy on her Warbeasts more effectively than our other Warlocks. By and large, pig Warbeasts get by with just one reliable +2 from Primal, and occasionally a conditional +2 to hit. That's usually enough, but Def 15+ models can be a problem, and with the rise of Menite Archons and Zaateroth you occasionally find yourself wishing there was more. With Helga being a Mat 13, a War Hog an 11, and both getting boosted charge attacks, those extreme edge cases that you come across are now actually solvable and a lot of models that are just a bit inefficient to deal with fall back into the realm of easy to dispose of. On the other end of the spectrum, I do sadly think that much of her kit is a trap. The models that make the best use of her Feat in faction, the Road Hog and the Meat Thresher with their Speed 7 and 8 respectively, don't hit hard enough to make an impact and she does nothing to help them in that respect. If there is a clear, glaring weakness with her design, it's that she was built to support those specific models but doesn't actually do anything to help them overcome their shortcomings. I mean, Road Hogs could already hit-and-run on their own, she doesn't actually help them do anything new there, but she doesn't fix their weak hitting power and the Meat Thresher is still a do-nothing model in far too many match-ups to be viable. Now, that doesn't stop her from being a good, strong Warlock. What it does do, however, is make her extremely unintuitive to build for. It's very easy to write a bad list for Helga, because everything about her is telling you to bring models that don't actually work on the table the way they work on paper with her. You just can't get by running the models she seems to want. A lot of Warcasters/Warlocks have clear, obvious synergies, allowing their lists to basically build themselves, but if you do that with Helga she'll end up feeling a lot weaker than she actually is. It's hard for me to offer general advice on list construction, because that list I ended up with was pretty methodically constructed through a bit of testing and trial and error, and it's a very tight, interlocking list. There's really no piece there that I think can be easily removed. It's pretty tempting to just point at what I've been running and say "those are the models she likes, not one more and not one less". If I were to drill down to the heart of it though, I'd say it's the following: -Void Archons. These have good speed, so make use out of her Feat. Dark Shroud and Entropic Force gives you a lot of value out of moving them to a new position once they've finished doing their own work early in the turn. Dark Shroud is also an easily applied caster-independent damage buff, so it can help your list crack the truly hard targets without Warlock support. -Rorsh and Brine. Helga wants to win the threat range game, which is a little awkward because she only brings a +2" buff to threat range and the fastest models that can use it don't hit enough when they get there. Brine threatens further without a buff than anything Helga could bring in her battlegroup, and swings a bit harder than a Road Hog (+1 initial attack and free charge) making him more reliable. They have their weaknesses, Helga can't buff their accuracy so they'll struggle into Def 13+, but they'll do wonders for giving you the board position you need to actually play Helga's hit-and-run game plan. -Mire and a Wrastler. For the most part, I don't actually mind Primal. It generally does what I need it to do, and the automatic frenzy rarely ends up costing me games. But for Helga, it's honestly poison. It massively devalues her hit-and-run, if the opponent gets a turn in return to position against your models without them being able to act. Plus, there is the fact that Helga doesn't need the accuracy so much. Rage is a huge step up for her as a result, more so than it is for other pig Warlocks. Helga also passively grants Mire stealth just from being nearby, Mire gives Brine Pathfinder, and the clouds again can be a boon to winning the early game positioning contest. Everything else in my list, the Gremlin Swarms for blocking landing zones, the Valkyries for Shield Guards, the Dhunian Archons for keeping those pieces alive (and occasionally bopping Primed off of Helga), is in aid of making sure that Helga can get into a good position early game and work over the opponent's list, even if the opponent is a little faster, has strong shooting, or would otherwise be in a commanding scenario position. I personally think they're the best options for their cost, with some niche extra synergy with Helga in corner cases. Valkyries can be pretty good Primed targets in a pinch, for example. If they were to be replaced, I'd be looking to swap them out for models that fill that sort of role, rather than trying to pack more heavies into the list or something like that.
|
|
|
Post by custardboy on May 20, 2020 5:36:27 GMT
I do agree on both fronts. I wouldn't mind if the witch doctor had something else consistent to do but I discovered yesterday that even Mire has pathfinder! I find ghostly occasionally game breaking for hit and run but the witch doctor does nothing else of note. On E+L, Helga does kinda care about shields- she just wants to knock it out with her first chain attack so her club hits harder. It also works on Archons who don't tend to finish off jacks/beasts alone. Minions have heaps of 'toolbox' pieces that only do one thing and are awful when that thing doesn't come up.
I think I'll give them a try, see how I feel.
|
|
|
Post by zwergenkrieger on May 20, 2020 20:50:07 GMT
Azahul: Thanks for the great write up. Well, what shall I say? I was somewhat dissapointed by your comment because once more it seems that Farrow are a half baked cake when it comes down to rules and in faction synergies. That´s why I started to leave Farrow behind and collected some Blindwater instead back in 2017. (Sidenote: Unfortunately I had just 3 games in the last two years due to collapsing gaming groups (this game is hardly apprpriate for casual play, at least after someone starts to read the internet...) and no real time / opportunity / motivation to enter tournaments.)
I hope I can restart Warmachine/Hordes after that Covid-19 desaster we all share right now. At least I got 2 Void Archons and some pieces for a Jaga Jaga list I played my last game against and I was really surprised by that list.
I also ordered some Pyg Tanks because I have that feeling that they could improve Helga1, the caster I second most love in Farrow (behind Arkadius).
It´s funny: while writing how much I´m dissapointed by the rules creators of PP (regarding Farrow of course) I´m noticing that I still bound to this very faction. I just have to paint some models and start playing again...
|
|
|
Post by custardboy on May 21, 2020 22:48:52 GMT
I've had two games with Lynus and Edrea and the Witch Doctor. Over two games, Lynus healed a war hog and that's it, Edrea did nothing at all BUT she did make Gaspy4 but bother throwing up clouds so that was good. The Witch Doctor only used ghost walk once, but that was pretty good- Helga was able to park behind a building in a zone and threaten the whole zone with her walk threat. He also sac striked a Dirge Seer using a Feralgeist. The second game didn't have any obstructions in a relevant spot.
So conclusion... Ehhh. They aren't worth keeping in the list. I'm almost OK with L+E for anti cloud tech but Lynus is just a def 14 contesting model, worth about 1 point. I have a very hard time justifying the Mist Speaker in any list so I thought paying an extra point and being a unit for scoring and having at least some offensive ability would make a difference. The Witch Doctor depends on obstruction placement but again, has nothing to do without that terrain. Neither piece has anything consistent to do. Why is it minion toolboxes only ever have a single situational tool?
Anyway... My list looks very similar to yours regardless. I don't take Rorsh and Brine in favour of another hog on Helga, and I switch the gremlin swarms, soul slave and Valkyries for Lanyssa, wastelander, razor boars and gobber package.
|
|
|
Post by custardboy on May 21, 2020 22:51:51 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on May 22, 2020 2:06:41 GMT
If you like hiding Helga behind obstructions, I definitely recommend trying out the Dhunian Archon/Gremlin Swarm combination. It's basically a mobile obstruction you can always charge through
|
|
|
Post by custardboy on May 22, 2020 3:13:47 GMT
Yeah I'm finding that important. I find that 9" isn't enough to get away a lot of the time, armies are just so fast.
|
|