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Post by Azahul on Feb 12, 2020 2:44:46 GMT
Oh I agree, there are a lot of minor irritants I feel when it comes to playing Helga.
I think if I were to go down the combat solo route, my first impulse would be to swap out a unit of Valkyries for Ledfoot and Tredz again, and to get J.A.I.M.s into the list. Yeah, another two solos that the Dhunian Archon can't save isn't ideal, but J.A.I.M.s is one of the few combat solos in the faction that doesn't already have a post-activation movement and thus actually really benefits from Helga's Feat. With Primed she can probably put enough of a dent into something too to trade up in points. She could reasonably start killing Archons at that point, for example, and afterwards she can be 9-11" away (depending on whether Ledfoot needs to be used to extend her threat range or whether he can be used to reposition her afterwards).
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Post by custardboy on Feb 12, 2020 5:46:39 GMT
I dropped the soul slave for the Hermit. It seemed like a good trade. The soul slave extra fury is 'essentially' another camp with her, and so is mad visions. Then you get the rest of the hermits tech. Also, camping one less fury is easier for fury management.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 12, 2020 6:14:24 GMT
I would need to fit Boomhowler back into the list to feel like the Hermit could meaningfully contribute, is the main issue there. Otherwise even the occasional Battering Ram or Bone Shaker from the Soul Slave tends to have more of an impact on my games. And I'm extremely reluctant to bring Boomhowler back when Helga's whole purpose seems to be to make him redundant.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Feb 12, 2020 16:05:40 GMT
I think 4 heavies is also pushing it for helga and that could really open points up for her. Like 2 + lights or 3 + BB might be a better rundown for her with her extra output. Gun boars might be good to look at, especially if you’re going down the dhunian route since they can run essentially for free
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Post by Azahul on Feb 12, 2020 21:43:04 GMT
I agree to an extent. I think if I were to cut any big ticket items it would be a Road Hog. Without any native damage buffs Helga can't really expect much from them, and she can't do much for their sprays either. Only one can have Rapport at a time.
That said opponents will usually play around their threat as if they were capable of killing heavies, and it means you have redundant sources of Sprint making it more likely that Helga can remain consistently effective into the late game.
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Post by custardboy on Feb 12, 2020 22:30:29 GMT
Kinda what I said to Hungerford. Road hogs and meat threshers aren't particularly good with her I considered running some shooting with her but she doesn't buff the ranged element, our beasts simply aren't very good at ranged, and we don't have good fury mitigation. On the Hermit, I did get use out of his armour debuff on a counterattack (saving Helga some Fury again) and he's just so handy to have floating around for scenario. Other things I found is I quite liked Kwaak and Gub and Razorboars with her. They aren't autoinclude or anything, but worked fairly well.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 12, 2020 23:26:41 GMT
I mean yeah, the problem with dropping a Road Hog is that I really don't feel there's a compelling choice you can take to replace it. A second Battle Boar is kind of tempting, but it feels like a lot of resources from Helga to get Rapport up and going and then delivering the Battle Boar to a spot where it can do work and I just don't know that I'm having problems with low Armour infantry enough that I feel like I need the investment. Mire and a Swamp Horror would tune that Battle Boar up to 11 but requires dropping another solo too and the list really doesn't support the Swamp Horror in any meaningful way in return, leaving you in a position where you've traded a heavy that doesn't hit like a heavy for another of the same. The Swamp Horror would be more tempting if the Meat Thresher was around or at all a compelling choice with Helga on its own, but it really does feel like an either/or proposition because now I'm having to either play without Valkyries and just lose to guns, or else I'm dropping Void Archons which is a ridiculous trade when they're some of the few models in the faction that Helga is obviously strong with.
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Post by custardboy on Feb 13, 2020 0:36:57 GMT
Adrenalize is a worthless ability. Even Xerxis2 doesn't bother with it and he CAN run swamp horrors and battle boars together, with rapport, +2 spd, his feat and paingivers. Primal is annoying for Helga. She's trying to hit and run so auto frenzy sucks. Between Rapport and cavalry charge she isn't really concerned about the MAT buff. Rapport doesn't stack with primal anyway. It's generally just +2 str for auto frenzy, plus you have to take the useless animus bot.
I'm going to give her a few tries without a battle boar or Mire+Wrastler. Between Void Archons, Hermit and maybe Hutchuk she should be OK into non-excessive armour. The paired list for her will probably crush armour anyway, being minions.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 13, 2020 0:51:00 GMT
I don't disagree on any of that. A list that looks something like this may be worth considering:
Minions [Theme] Will Work For Food
[Helga 2] Helga on Wheels [+28] - Road Hog [15] - War Hog [14] - War Hog [14] - War Hog [14] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Bone Shrine [2] Eilish Garrity, the Occultist [0(5)] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [0(4)] Underchief Mire [4] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] Void Archon [8] Void Archon [8] Farrow Valkyries [8]
To be honest I'd like that list a lot more if the third War Hog could be a second Road Hog. Yeah, she doesn't do much for them, but I want my Road Hogs just to be able to reach enemies I would otherwise not be able to get to. In any case, having Mire able to make some clouds for Helga to sprint behind isn't something I actively dislike, so it might be worth putting on the table.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Feb 13, 2020 14:41:25 GMT
The only problem I have with that list is if you replace Helga with Arkadius the list probably improves, so what ends up being the pair for it, or how does it change the layout of the matchups
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Post by Azahul on Feb 14, 2020 13:13:52 GMT
I mean, sure. That's kind of a given with almost any pig list. We only have a handful of models to work with and Helga doesn't support... well, anything specifically well. The main thing it has is Helga, which functionally puts another heavy on the table, and the ability to play hit-and-run that Arkadius does not have. That's not going to be great in every match-up, but it will mean that there might be a handful where Helga is superior to Arkadius. That's enough to at least find a niche competitively.
Hopefully her final rules will include one or two more changes that give her a clearer design space. But at least she falls into the "fun to play" category right now, which is something.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 26, 2020 6:01:51 GMT
Played a quick little Helga2 game into Trolls last night. The lists were: Helga on Wheels (using Lug as a proxy) -War Hog -War Hog -Road Hog -Road Hog -Battle Boar -Soul Slave Valkyries Valkyries Void Archon Void Archon Lanyssa (using Orin Midwinter as a proxy, I keep forgetting to actually put Lanyssa in my case) Eilish Dhunian Archon Bone Shrine Kolgrimma -Glacier King (using a big blue proxy base as a proxy) -Mauler -Axer -Runebearer Max Champions -Skaldi Max Krielstone -Northkin Elder Battle Bears Valka Boomhowler2 Deployment My opponent won the starting roll and took first. We had an old piece of hill terrain that we were treating as an obstruction on the left-hand side, so I let my opponent have that table side to make his access to the left flank flag problematic. He deployed his Glacier King on the right, Champions on the left, and everything else in the centre with the bears ambushing. I deployed relatively symmetrically, but I ended up with both Void Archons on the centre-left so that they could both benefit from the protection of the same unit of Valkyries and because I wanted to make sure that no knockdown Tough from the Champions wouldn't ruin my day. Both objectives are Stockpiles. I forgot about Kolgrimma's clouds for some reason and the specifics of how her Feat worked, so I probably should have gone for an Observatory or Fuel Cache instead. Trolls Turn 1 Kolgrimma put Owl's Wisdom and Rush on the Glacier King and dumped her Fury into the stone, then Vanished and advanced up the board. The Stone advanced and went to max Fury and handed out some extra Speed for the Northkin models. Everything else ran. Pigs Turn 1 Helga took a Fury off the Bone Shrine so that she would be camping three. She cast Battle Host on herself and put Rapport on the left-hand War Hog so that it would be able to chew through Champions more easily. She advanced about as far as I felt she could without getting into the walking threat of the Glacier King. Everything else ran up, largely avoiding my opponent's threats, but I figured that I couldn't afford to completely forfeit the board presence so on the right flank I moved my Valkyries up to deny landing spots that could potentially reach Helga and put my Road Hog somewhere where my opponent would have to give my War Hog and Helga a shot at the Glacier King if he wanted to remove it. Everything tried to ensure it was within range of a couple of Valkyries to minimise the Glacier King's ability to do work. I used Lanyssa as a backstop on the left flank to make it hard to push the Rapport'd War Hog without bringing Kolgrimma very far forward. Trolls Turn 2 Boomhowler gave Kolgrimma Reposition, and the Runebearer gave her Harmonious Exaltation. She moved up and Vanished forward, and took a fully boosted spray on the central Void Archon. She suffered three damage from Eilish, didn't get the Crit, and did just one damage for her trouble. She Feated, covering basically every single model in my army and pushing the Valkyries into a spot where she could target them instead of the Archon to avoid Arcane Void, and then sprayed the Archon again. This time she didn't boost to hit, and she missed the attack roll. She repositioned back, camping one. The Glacier King then advanced and fired its gun at the Road Hog on the right. It hit, and I let the Road Hog absorb the eight or nine damage from the hit. The second and third attacks both missed, so the Valkyries didn't even get used. Everything else in Kolgrimma's army just ran up a little bit, trying to avoid my threat ranges. Pigs Turn 2 My objective this turn was to remove the Glacier King, ideally without losing Helga, and to score some CPs to cement a dominant lead. I dropped Rapport to make sure that Helga would have enough camp at the end of this. I had the Battle Boar Primal my Road Hog on the right, and ran my Void Archon into melee (more difficult than it would have appeared, thanks to losing Flight). The Road Hog charged in and rolled ballistic, leaving the Glacier King on 13 health. The Valkyries who were close enough charged in and managed to do another two points. Eilish put Puppet Master on Helga and teleported to the right-hand flag. Helga activated, Feated, and killed the Glacier King on her charge attack. She pulled back to safety and cycled Rapport out onto the Road Hog on the left, then just healed some damage on the Primal'd Road Hog. Lanyssa ran to the left-hand flag. I scored my zone and two flags, my opponent scored his zone, so the score went to 3-1 in my favour. Trolls Turn 3 My opponent felt that losing the Glacier King so trivially meant that he basically had to go for an assassination run. There was a way for the Mauler to get onto Helga by charging my objective, but it would require a lot of resources. The Axer put Rush on the Mauler. The Runebearer gave Kolgrimma Harmonious Exaltation. She moved up and used Frost Hammer to stationary Helga, but didn't do any damage. A Valkyrie in the way was rendered stationary and knocked down by its successful Tough roll. Kolgrimma cast Hunter's Mark on my objective, then Vanished out of the way. A Champion charged and killed the super immobile Valkyrie. Boomhowler gave Valka Reposition. Valka then charged the other intervening Valkyrie. He needed to hit both attacks to kill the Valkyrie through the Dhunian Archon, but missed his charge attack. With no way to clear the remaining Valkyrie, my opponent conceded. We actually rolled out the assassination run, because I was pretty sure that a Mauler with no charge attack, minus one initial, and no Rage wasn't going to kill an Arm 19 Helga on three camp. Sure enough, yeah, it wouldn't have happened even if Valka had not screwed the pooch. I got a bit lucky on dice rolls there, but I think my opponent just didn't have enough meat on the table to be a problem. I do think deploying the bears would have been more useful than ambushing them, though I don't deny that they put a bit of pressure on me during my turns. If I learned anything from this game, it was the fabled art of offering up something as a piece trade. I didn't feel like my Road Hogs were going to be enormously relevant or important this game (my thought process was more or less "War Hog with Rapport kills the Champions, other War Hog kills Glacier King, Helga kills Mauler, I win?) so throwing up the Road Hog where the Glacier King could either punch it and take Helga and a heavy or not punch it and still cop a heavy to the face felt like an easy decision to make. My opponent's decision to shoot at it when I was swimming in Valkyries was probably the worst of both worlds, though it did mean that Helga could only get her Chain into range to attack with. Still, I don't normally play with lists that have to make that decision, so it was an interesting decision to find myself making Looking forward to Helga's final rules releasing... this week, if I remember correctly. I could still see her using some subtle improvements, but I'm not totally unhappy with how she plays right now.
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Post by charlzheimer on Feb 26, 2020 8:12:30 GMT
the more i see you play with her the happier and giddier i become to fielding her myself.
its wierd how its only a 5P model.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 26, 2020 11:46:02 GMT
She's basically what I wanted when her spoilers started coming through, something pigs have never head in the form of a super solo Warlock. Good fun to play. I don't really see her having a strong competitive place (pending the CID at the end of the year), but she's good enough to be fun on the table and I'm happy with that.
Wait, which one is the 5P model? 5 points? I'm confused.
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Post by charlzheimer on Feb 27, 2020 14:32:34 GMT
She's basically what I wanted when her spoilers started coming through, something pigs have never head in the form of a super solo Warlock. Good fun to play. I don't really see her having a strong competitive place (pending the CID at the end of the year), but she's good enough to be fun on the table and I'm happy with that. Wait, which one is the 5P model? 5 points? I'm confused. 5 part model. her model is a total of 5 parts. Also, she definently feels like she wants a battlegroup heavy army. but do you think cav razorboars could be a fun experiment?
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