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Post by Azahul on Oct 24, 2018 12:38:13 GMT
In your last game with Sturm and Drang, you switched to Drang and then used the soul slave to TK a model. Would the soul slave still have access to sturm's spells even though Drang is the "active mind"? Yep! Spell Slave literally states "spells on the card", and they're still physically there on the card. Confirmed in a couple of rules forum questions too, like this one: privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?276595-Sturm-amp-Drang-and-Spell-Slave
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 24, 2018 15:41:09 GMT
In your last game with Sturm and Drang, you switched to Drang and then used the soul slave to TK a model. Would the soul slave still have access to sturm's spells even though Drang is the "active mind"? Yep! Spell Slave literally states "spells on the card", and they're still physically there on the card. Confirmed in a couple of rules forum questions too, like this one: privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?276595-Sturm-amp-Drang-and-Spell-SlaveNice! Another interaction to remember when I finally get them on the table.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 24, 2018 21:15:16 GMT
Being sick clearly doesnt help my already low reading comprehension ^^ And of course less than 12 hours after this we have Mire's stats And good lord. Speed 6, Mat 6, Def 13, Arm 14, 5 boxes, Fury 4... with Amphibious, Immunity Corrosion, Pathfinder(!), Prowl(!!), Attuned freaking Spirit(!!!), a P+S 10, Range 2 Spear with Poison, and Caustic Mist(!!!!) and Weald Secrets(Terry Pratchett tells me that if I hit five exclamation marks I've officially gone off the deep end). Hot damn. So much Pathfinder. So much Rage. Or just perma stealth with the Dracodile's animus. Woof. All thanks to the most recent Dev Chat.
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Post by slaughtersun on Oct 25, 2018 9:44:44 GMT
Being at work what does caustic mist and weald secrets do? Is it the clouds in asphyxious2 ?
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Post by slaughtersun on Oct 25, 2018 9:55:13 GMT
Nevermind the above reply...just saw the stats on another topic...
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Post by Azahul on Oct 29, 2018 1:59:04 GMT
Okie dokies, I've got a report using Mire's actual rules The list being tested was: Sturm and Drang -Battle Boar -Battle Boar -War Hog -Soul Slave Mire -Dracodile Dahlia -Skarath Brun -Lug Orin Eilish Mist Speaker Gobber Chef I was facing off against: Anamag -Blightbringer -Ammok Max Warmongers Max Warmongers Max Warmongers -Gorag Max Chosen Hellmouth Hellmouth War Chieftain Spell Martyr Spell Martyr Deployment I won the starting roll and took first. I'm still figuring out how best to deploy and unpack this list (or repack it, since it's quite a brick), but basically aimed to have Shield Guards all around the Blightbringer to protect Mire and Orin, the two important solos in the match-up. My opponent deployed his Warmongers around the Blightbringer, with the Chosen skewing left to take that zone. The huge base is the Dracodile, the little Croak to its left is Mire, and since I literally just picked up Brun and Lug that evening those two are just their torso lying on some handy proxy bases. Objectives for both of us are healing objectives. Pigs Turn 1 Just about everything runs. Sturm puts Polarity Shield on the Dracodile and Vision on Skarath and charges the Blightbringer. Brun puts up Stonehold. Dahlia casts Haunting Melody. Brun and Lug go from the right flank towards the left, since I decide they're probably better off there, and consequently end up jammed behind the War Hog. Legion Turn 1 Hellmouth tentacles run to engage. Anamag gives Bond of Gristle and Bone to the Chosen and they run off to flank wide staying out of the threat range of the War Hog. Pigs Turn 2 The Soul Slave TKs Skarath off to one side so that he can charge past the building. My Battle Boar then punches and kills the Tentacle blocking Skarath from charging the Hellmouth there. Dahlia runs up and I derp and forget to put her within 3" of the Battle Boar. Skarath receives Puppet Master and charges the Hellmouth and kills it thanks to Puppet Master. I mean, I didn't actually use the reroll, but obviously the only reason I rolled so high for damage was because I gave him Puppet Master and I obviously needed to waste it. After that, the War Hog and Lug cleared the remaining tentacles and used Overtake and Return to set themselves up with the objective to deny the Hellmouth any drags. The Dracodile sprayed down a couple of Warmongers and Mire clouds up the left flank to block out the Chosen. Legion Turn 2 My opponent spends a lot of time working out which buffs he wants to use to kill the Dracodile until I ask him how he intends to get there without charging and he remembers Polarity Shield. Oops. He then thanks about how manage accuracy buffs he needs to kill Skarath and ultimately decides that no, he doesn't need to cast Carnage, hitting on 5s with Veteran Leader and Powerful Charge will be fine. The Blightbringer walks up, chooses Dragon's Blood, and shoots Dahlia. Naturally scores the direct hit and rolls 6, 5, 5 for damage because I didn't think to give her a Shield Guard, so now Skarath is almost dead from the transfer. He has Anamag try to Hex Blast her to death, but this time I think the attack misses and scatters off somewhere. Then karma bites. He charges in the three Warmongers, misses the first two attacks, Vision absorbs the third. The Warmongers mostly mill around, some come forward to jam. The Chosen move in to claim the left zone, with one coming forward to try and kill the Gobber Chef who was preparing to contest. Misses the swing on the Gobber. My opponent scores 2 CP, making the score 0-2 in his favour. Pigs Turn 3 Dahlia heals up Skarath's damaged aspects, the Battle Boar Primals and this time remembers to sit within 3" of her, Skarath bites some Ogrun who all Tough and thus he only kills one and casts Counterblast. I primal my War Hog as well, Mire Clouds up again, and the Dracodile sprays a few Ogrun but only kills one, blinding one in the zone and Gorag. I TK the War Hog and the two Ogrun still in the zone out of said zone between the Soul Slave and Sturm (failing to kill the Ogrun in the zone with the spray really hurt). Lug cleaned up the models engaging the War Hog. The War Hog then charged the Hellmouth, killed it in two swings with boosted damage rolls, then killed a couple of Ogrun. The Gobber Chef on the left moved in to contest the zone. I score 1 CP and contest both zones my opponent scored, making things 1-2 in his favour. Legion Turn 3 The Warmongers all Vengeance all over the place, and I kill one with Skarath's Counterblast. My opponent had managed his Fury poorly, leaving the Blightbringer on 1, and it frenzies but fails to kill a Warmonger. They do a little damage to the War Hog, and it allows the spun around ones to correct their facing. The Chosen then pile in and kill the War Hog, but this leaves the one engaging the Gobber Chef out of Command and it rans. The Gobber Chef spikes damage like a champion and after Rapid Healing the Chosen has just 4 boxes left. One Ogrun re-enters my zone and dies to Lug's Counter Charge, the other sacs movement for an ineffectual swing on the Dracodile, and Gorag sacs action to advance a little. Over on the right the War Chief charges in, almost kills Skarath, the lone Warmonger finishes the job. His Berserk attack takes out almost half the Battle Boar's health but no aspects. Anamag, having allowed her army to kill stuff without doing anything, just camps six Fury. My opponent clears his zone but fails to contest mine, so the score is no 2-3 in his favour. Pigs Turn 4 I have the choice between hanging back this turn and whittling down the Chosen with Blinding sprays or committing to try and kill as much as I can. I opt for the latter, since we're both pretty low on clock. I Primal Lug with a Battle Boar, use Eilish to strip Bond of Gristle and Bone (doing three damage to Anamag incidentally), and go in on the Chosen and remaining Warmongers. Lug kills Gorag and another Warmonger but fails to kill a Chosen to let him Overtake up to contest my opponent's zone. I decide to send the Dracodile in to kill the Blightbringer, but opt not to charge so that I can face properly for Polarity Shield. The Dracodile rolls extremely hot and kills the Blightbringer with three Fury to spare. Mire puts up a cloud and camps. Sturm Feats just to stop Anamag from channelling spells and throws up Deceleration. Over on the right the Battle Boar manages to kill both the Warmonger and the Chieftain with boosted damage rolls. With Sturm in the right zone, I score 2 CP and my opponent scores 1, bringing the score to 4-4. Legion Turn 4 My opponent is running very low on clock. Ammok clears Polarity Shield with Unbinding. I completely spaced on the fact that he had that rule, so turns out I could have charged the Blightbringer. Anamag Feats, gives herself some extra damage, and charges the Dracodile. She removes maybe a quarter of its health. The Chosen kill Lug. My opponent scores 1 CP, making the score 4-5 in his favour. Pigs Turn 5 Eilish gives Puppet Master to Brun. Brun throws out a Frost Hammer at Anamag, gets the Crit Stationary. I Primal the Dracodile and boost the bite attack's damage roll for funsies and one-shot Anamag.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 29, 2018 2:17:37 GMT
So this was a pretty encouraging game. We both made some poor plays, we both had alternately hot and cold dice, but having played it now I think that this list has very strong game into Primal Terrors. PT was one of the lists I wrote my Midas list to play into, and thus it's a match-up that I felt would be a good proving ground for this list to demonstrate that it could serve as a replacement in the pairing. Plus, the more I think about and play this list the more answers it appears to have into different match-ups. My opponent did have Fyanna2 in his pairing, and while we talked about how she'd be a better drop into this but that he'd likely play PT because of the danger Arkadius presents, in retrospect I think this list has the tools (i.e. a Primaled Skarath, a counter-charging Lug, etc.) to play into Fyanna and even get a good bit of work done through her Feat.
Mire's rules were pretty darn useful. Being able to spend down to 0 camp, and thus allowing the Dracodile to max out and get full work, all while feeling safe and secure behind the big guy and the clouds and with Shield Guards and Deceleration and Arcane Vortex, is pretty great. I never actually used Attuned Spirit, but that's a Legion thing really. Dropping the Dracodile out of LOS just to get Stealth is a bit pointless in this match-up. Better to hug his butt. In other games I may consider lurking further back so that the LOS thing isn't an issue, but I do need to be careful when casting it that I'm not jamming up my own army with the rough terrain and it makes it a bit awkward to position Mire.
Scenario continues to be problematic though, and I'm not sure I can dig up enough points to get a good fix. Honestly, Dahlia is pretty obnoxious to remove, the Gobber Chef can stall out a turn, and the Dracodile is reasonably obnoxious so I do have some options. It's probably fine save into explicitly strong scenario lists, and I have Arkadius as a fall back there.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 29, 2018 12:15:39 GMT
I'm really liking the rules for Mire, allowing minions to get in on the cloud wall action is pretty fun along with being able to grant hunter to a unit.
I've been looking at adding Mire to other lists but have been having issues with beast loadout. Boneswarm+snapper is the cheapest. Double bone swarm might be better though but wrastler+swarm could be just as fun. There might be a case for him to run a blindwalker just to have an extra shield guard+throw/slam bot around. If you were to run Mire without the Dracodile, what beasts would you use?
Side note: Polarity shielded dracodile is my new favorite thing.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 29, 2018 12:21:45 GMT
A quick note about Attuned spirit. It allows Mire to cast the drac's animus on himself for free. So the 5" shallow water would be centered on Mire, not the Dracodile and therefore not remove the Drac from LOS as long as he isn't completely within 5" of mire.
I'm really liking the rules for Mire, allowing minions to get in on the cloud wall action is pretty fun along with being able to grant hunter to a unit.
Side note: Polarity shielded dracodile is my new favorite thing.
I'm going off memory here, but I'm pretty sure the Dracodile's animus is "models within 5" of this model treat open terrain as Shallow Water". Which means if the Dracodile is even barely within 5" of Mire, it is a model "within" 5" of this model, and thus treats the open ground as Shallow Water. I haven't... actually used Weald Secrets yet, which is somewhat surprising to me. Except for casting it on a War Hog one time because I had nothing better to do with the Fury and didn't want a cloud. But it is certainly awesome to have the option. And yes, the Polarity Shielded Dracodile is certainly my favourite thing. Played another game of it tonight which I should have written up in a couple of days, and I learned an absolute ton. When this list has the board space to just hang back and force the opponent to engage it is fearsome as anything. Lug keeps being randomly amazing in unexpected ways too, which I super like
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 29, 2018 13:06:58 GMT
A quick note about Attuned spirit. It allows Mire to cast the drac's animus on himself for free. So the 5" shallow water would be centered on Mire, not the Dracodile and therefore not remove the Drac from LOS as long as he isn't completely within 5" of mire.
I'm going off memory here, but I'm pretty sure the Dracodile's animus is "models within 5" of this model treat open terrain as Shallow Water". Which means if the Dracodile is even barely within 5" of Mire, it is a model "within" 5" of this model, and thus treats the open ground as Shallow Water. That is true, but the amphibious rule is the one that talks about LOS and it states that the model has to be "completely within" any shallow water terrain feature to not block LOS. So the drac just has to stay >0.4" away from Mire to not be completely within the shallow water bubble. Huge bases are 4.724" in diameter.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 29, 2018 19:15:16 GMT
The addition of Mire backhandedly makes Linus+Edrea even more critical to consider when list-building. Just spit-balling, but Zaadesh2 likes Mire a lot, since it gives him an option to expand his wall, or use Fury for other purposes.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 29, 2018 21:17:53 GMT
That is true, but the amphibious rule is the one that talks about LOS and it states that the model has to be "completely within" any shallow water terrain feature to not block LOS. So the drac just has to stay >0.4" away from Mire to not be completely within the shallow water bubble. Huge bases are 4.724" in diameter. I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. The checklist goes like this: -Are you within 5" of the spellcaster? -If yes, treat all open terrain as shallow water. -Is your base entirely in open terrain? -If yes, you are now completely within shallow water. Funnily enough if your base is just clipping a forest or something then that will prevent you from being completely within shallow water. That aside, the point is that the animus doesn't turn a 5" radius around the spellcaster into shallow water. It's a bit weirder than that. The animus checks for other models within that 5" radius. Any models in that radius treat all open terrain as shallow water. That means that if a Gargantuan is just within 5" of the spellcaster, then they act as if their entire base was in shallow water for the duration of time that their base remains within 5" of the spellcaster. The addition of Mire backhandedly makes Linus+Edrea even more critical to consider when list-building. Just spit-balling, but Zaadesh2 likes Mire a lot, since it gives him an option to expand his wall, or use Fury for other purposes. I'm not sure that Lynus and Edrea would exactly be my go-to, but I sure am happy to have a Mist Speaker in both lists. Funnily enough, I think this ups the stock of Splatter Boars as well. I'll be subbing one into my Arkadius list to replace a Gun Boar, which I'm hoping will be able to act as a starter for Mire's cloud wall. You scatter a random Smoke Bomb somewhere and then Mire uses it as a base to build out from, giving you a bit more forward coverage than trying to work with a Mist Speaker or Bellows Crew ordinarily would.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 29, 2018 21:53:27 GMT
If you were to run Mire without the Dracodile, what beasts would you use? Oops, didn't spot this question before. Uh... Wrastler. Have to be a Wrastler, every time. None of the other Blindwater beasts are terribly appealing. The Swamp Horror for Elasticity on a Battle Engine is cute, but Rask does that trick better than any pig Warlock. I wouldn't run the lights on Mire, because on their own they're not that impressive and without a Wrastler in the list pigs have no way to buff the output of a Boneswarm. But Mire + Wrastler is something you can slot into literally any pig Warlock's list to good effect I think.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 30, 2018 12:00:27 GMT
I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. The checklist goes like this: -Are you within 5" of the spellcaster? -If yes, treat all open terrain as shallow water. -Is your base entirely in open terrain? -If yes, you are now completely within shallow water. Funnily enough if your base is just clipping a forest or something then that will prevent you from being completely within shallow water. That aside, the point is that the animus doesn't turn a 5" radius around the spellcaster into shallow water. It's a bit weirder than that. The animus checks for other models within that 5" radius. Any models in that radius treat all open terrain as shallow water. That means that if a Gargantuan is just within 5" of the spellcaster, then they act as if their entire base was in shallow water for the duration of time that their base remains within 5" of the spellcaster. Hmm, guess I've been playing that wrong for a while now. It does read fairly oddly.
Side thought: If you had Mire on one side of the board, drac at max control range away from Mire with both having the drac's animus up you could almost cover your entire army.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 30, 2018 23:36:27 GMT
Managed to get in two more games with the Sturm and Drangodile build into a post-CID Circle Call of the Wild list and a Bradigus Bones build. The first game was: Sturm and Drang -War Hog -Battle Boar -Battle Boar -Soul Slave Mire -Dracodile Dahlia -Skarath Brun -Lug Eilish Orin Mist Speaker Gobber Chef Against Kaya3 -Gnarlhorn Satyr -Gnarlhorn Satyr -Gnarlhorn Satyr -Shadowhorn Satyr -Shadowhorn Satyr -Shadowhorn Satyr -Feral Warpwolf Shifting Stones Shifting Stones Farrow Valkyries Wayfarer Wayfarer Lord of the Feast Deployment I won the starting roll and took first turn. My opponent gave me a table side with a somewhat centrally placed building, which I naturally immediately deployed the Dracodile behind because I'm just that clever. I went with Dahlia and Skarath on my left to take advantage of the forest there, and Brun and Lug on the right. My opponent's army deployed basically symmetrically, either the Lord of the Feast hanging out with the Shifting Stones on the left and the Valkyries out on the far right to move in on the zone there. Death Wolves are the Valkyries, and the Fulcrum is the Dracodile. Pigs Turn 1 I realised my mistake with the Dracodile and run it out onto the left flank, before sending the War Hog running over to the right flank to compensate. Polarity Shield went on the Dracodile, and Vision onto Skarath, and then Sturm TK'd himself forward and charged a Satyr to get some extra board presence. Dahlia and Brun cast their respective upkeeps and everything else ran up the board. Circle Turn 1 The Gnarlhorns trample and reposition forwards, casting their animii, while most of the Shadowhorns walk and jump and give themselves Elusive. Kaya casts Synergy and Soothing Song to strip off most of the Fury. The Lord of the Feast shelters behind the forest. Pigs Turn 2 I take a long time to work out what to do this turn. My opponent's stuff out-threats me and can get around Polarity Shield with jumps, so the Dracodile is under threat. After a lot of consideration I decide to run my Gobber Chef forward, putting it somewhere where it can easily contest my opponent's zone in his next turn. I put the Dracodile somewhere where a single Shadowhorn will be able to get to it, gambling that a Primal'd Shadowhorn with +1 Synergy still doesn't do too much damage to the Dracodile and that it can net me an early advantage in the piece trade game if my opponent goes for it. I back everything else up a little to lurk on the edge of the zones just out of the threat ranges of my opponent's army. Circle Turn 2 Lord of the Feast comes forward, hits the Dracodile with the bird, I Shield Guard it off to the Battle Boar on the left. Lord of the Feast does a solid whack of damage to the Battle Boar and pops Vision on Skarath. Counter Charge on Lug dissuades his heavies from coming forward to kill the Chef and he decides to just press forward a little further with all his heavies to bully the zones with his longer threat ranges. The Stones port forward a bit, the Satyrs all use their animii. Neither of us score the side zones, both the central ones are uncontested, so the score goes to 1-1. Pigs Turn 3 I... still don't think it's worth committing. Mostly because the one Shadowhorn close enough to kill would actually give my opponent 1-2 chances at Counter Slams, which I just don't need. So I decide to back up and do what I can to contest. I run the Chef to contest both his zone and the right-hand zone. I backed up Skarath and the Battle Boar well behind the left zone and run Dahlia into it on a hill, because with no models to throw at her she's straight up immune to everything in his list bar Kaya's nuke spell and the Wayfarer and they're going to struggle with Def 18 and three transfers. Brun and Lug back up a bit out of the zone and the War Hog positions a little more centrally behind one of Mire's clouds. I again make the decision to leave the Dracodile in range of a single Shadowhorn. Sturm tosses up Deceleration. Orin casts Chain Lightning into a Shifting Stone and does a little damage to the stone and the Shadowhorn behind it by burning two his tokens. I score my zone and bring the score to 2-1 in my favour. Circle Turn 3 Kaya drops Synergy, comes across and hits Dahlia with a nuke spell for about 6 damage, which gets dumped onto Skarath. The Feral Primals up the closest Shadowhorn. The Wayfarer tries to get the double 6 he needs to knock Dahlia down with his spray and misses. The Shadowhorn tramples over Dahlia and misses. Over on the right, the Shadowhorn comes forward to kill the Chef and block access to my opponent's zone, the Gnarlhorn comes forward to help block access to that corner of my opponent's zone again, and all the Satyrs put their animii up. The Valkyries hide behind the forest and score the right-hand zone. The Stones port forward and contest/jam. My opponent scores his zone and the right-hand zone, bringing the score to 3-2 in his favour. Pigs Turn 4 Skarath comes forward and bites up the Primal'd Shadowhorn for want of anything better to do. He leaves it quite badly injured and Paralysed. I sadly need to unjam the Dracodile by moving Orin out of the way first and electrocuting the Stone again. The Battle Boar charges into it and kills it in two attacks, freeing up the Dracodile. The Soul Slave TK's Lug forward, and the Battle Boar on that flanks Primals him. Eilish uses Puppet Master on Sturm, who then TK's the War Hog forward, TK's himself forward, hits the Feral with a boosted TK and brings it closer to the Dracodile. He sprays the Feral for good measure and burns Puppet Master on the damage roll to do nothing. He also Feats, missing the Gnarlhorn on the far left but catching the Shadowhorn and Gnarlhorn at the back of the left zone that I won't be able to deal with this turn. The Dracodile charges into the Feral, boosting the assault spray to Blind it, and then rips it apart with two Fury to spare. Lug rolls exceptionally well for damage against the Gnarlhorn and kills it with just his initials and the Chain Attack, but the Chain Attack knocks down the Shadowhorn on that flank allowing the War Hog to walk in and kill it. I score my zone, my opponent has nothing left in his zone and the right-hand zone is contested so the score goes to 3-3. Circle Turn 4 My opponent sends the Shadowhorn in to try and throw the Battle Boar at Sturm but then we realise that it doesn't have a high enough Strength to throw far enough. Kaya tries to spell Sturm to death but thanks to cover from the building it's basically impossible and he concedes. Really interesting game. I don't have a ton of reps with Dahlia, so it's still a weird feeling to be using her belligerently like that to contest a zone rather than hiding her out of a worry that something might get her. I also took way too long to play this out, would have lost on clock on Turn 2 had we been using one. It's such a different tempo game to playing the way I'm used to. I'm not used to having something durable like the Dracodile that I can put in range of one thing from my opponent's army but not all the things, and I'm not used to playing slow and conservatively. This match-up had the advantage as well of allowing me to break up the brick, giving me much stronger scenario presence by flanking with Brun and Dahlia. Still a lot of tricks to learn, but I'm really encouraged by the fact that it was able to handle such a worrying match-up (high potential output, lots of heavies, longer threat, and the means to by-pass Polarity Shield) so comfortably.
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