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Post by telmerand on Jun 3, 2017 15:52:33 GMT
So I've been percolating a lot on the current jack heavy meta (lots of Khador) and skimming over the Menoth stats a good bit.
I don't know why the Crusader does not get more praises sung about it. It's a bare bones boring jack, but its Mat 6 like most our jacks, it has the same damage boxes, its Arm 19 like everything else, it has a pow 18 attack which is better than most of the jacks. For that it's 50-100% cheaper than other options. Arc nodes seem a little weaker to me with so many heavies around (who needs pow 10's, 12's and the occasional 13 in such a heavy arm meta) and it leaves me looking to the Redeemer and Reckoner as the only real contenders as the Reckoner is a force multiplier for Sunbursts and Redeemers and Redeemers can hide on back doing damage all game.
So just to bullet list it all compared to the Crusader:
Castigator: Only 2 pts more, it's damage output is a little lower but not awful (still rolling dice after choir on Cygnar jacks and such) that 20% extra cost is none the less tied up in Combustion which is nearly useless in most games and Ashen Veil which is a lot worse than Def 12, with jacks ignoring it's effect all over the place. If Crusader were a 10 for comparison, I'd give it a 7/10.
Dervish: Very nice light that would be excellent in a meta with more heavy infantry, martial solos, and light jacks. As is, outside a caster or two, it seems best to leave it at home. Under a very different meta I'd give it a 10/10, but in this case 6/10 and mostly due to combo strike (if it were possible to parry in a blue moon to get in the targets back arc and thus not be attacked further, it'd be a 10).
Devout: I'm a big fan of defensive strike but an avg of 20 damage is not going to do much of anything in the meta. Back when Lords of the Feast were good and martial solos were deep striking, it was nice, but now that its all gunlines and jack goose step, outta favor. At nearly the cost of a Crusader, I'd take a Crusader every time in the meta, 4/10.
Guardian: Costs 50% more, compare 3 crusaders to 2 guardians, the spear is cute but with knockdown being shaken off, it does not have the omph of ages past. I'd rather keep wailing on a heavy with Pow 18 mace than throw it and leave it alive. I usually assume Khador is going to get it's charges off more than Menoth, we have few speed boosts, so the threat of 9'' on the Guardian is not worth much compared to the 8'' of the Crusader. Arc node is again pretty weak in the current meta and the flags no longer doing anything makes me sad - 1/10 to the Crusader in current meta. I'd always take the Crusader.
Indicator: Consecration, worthless. Sacred ward is ok - no parasite damage boost or such things. Shield is ok, but not worth 50% more than a Crusader. Lower Pow, not much, but it will make a difference against Khador heavies. If it were 12-13 points I'd consider it against a Crusader - probably as the point of the spear to receive charges with a arm/def buff or similar on it, then run the rest Crusaders for the counter charge. At 50% more than the Crusader, rather run another Crusader. 6/10.
Purifier: Ehh, no, just a worse Dervish without the whispered hope of sidestepping into a back arc for survival and no combo strike. 0/10.
Reckoner: Would run with Sunbursts and redeemers with anyone but Kreoss 1. Solid gunline jack that allows other guns to close the deal even against stuff like Cryx. Ashen Veil pretty legit against gun line vs gunline and a stronger body than most of the competition. Depending on the army comp. 10/10 vs Crusader. I'd run it just as readily.
Redeemer: Same as above for the same reasons, Reckoner can combat multiply it and it can pull double duty beating down on any infantry that exists - but otherwise with aimin and Reckoner we are back up to Rat 5 and choir is going to allow us three Pow 14+3d6 (24.5avg) damage shots out there on our target. 10/10.
Repenter: I'd love him in the same meta as the devout or just infantry swarms. I view him as spraying two pow 12's at the same time with the auto fire - great for heavy infantry/solos and such. In the Current meta I jut see it getting destroyed at range or by Khador charge before it kills and of the hanging back support solos. Normally much higher, but in current meta 5/10.
Revenger: Same cost as the Crusader but it will get no work done in this meta. Best offensive value it can hope is to deep strike on a flank and ashes to ashes a support solo or maybe some artillery before dying. Fighting a Khador Jack - it might be useful as the point man with the Repulser Shield the key being how often it's shield falls off. Crusader would be dead on the charge too, so it might have a role receiving charges and being around to do something the next round or maybe play repair units to keep that shield hp at full capacity. I'd consider it against a Crusader, but only 1-2 depending on point value of the game. 9/10 tentative.
Sanctifier: Much lower pow weapon, rolling 3 damage per attack unboosted on Khador. The lack of infantry in meta is going to make its focus gen spotty at best. I would not consider this very often. Ghost Fleet is a thing, but it seems like their would be better options, even if that's just handing out magical attacks to a redeemer via the book or using that Revenger to arc some spells into them. Niche and better options for it's niche with current meta - 3/10.
Templar: Right, super slow Shield Guard that I need to have Warcasters crawl around with. 15 pt shield guard that's gonna sit around and waste its time - I feel I'd rather have 3 Crusaders to 2 of these every time. I don't know what shields are costed at in Pt's but it's too high. 0/10.
Vanquisher: Meant for infantry and over costed even there. Rather have a Redeemer any day for anti jack or anti solo/infantry. Rather have a Reckoner for the gunline for less. If it was 14-15 points, sure. Otherwise can't compete, 0/10.
Vigilant: Against jacks it's shields will fall off quickly and it will crack like an egg. Not good for point man like another Crusader or a Revenger (pray that shield stays on). Nearly same cost as a Crusader for no value, maybe I'd try it at 7 pts. 0/10.
Avatar: I can have two crusaders, 0/10.
Not going to compare to Collosi or Character Jacks - though I feel like 3.6 Crusaders is going to last longer than those Collosi, as they are going to get some 14-16 inch charges on them and die.
Slightly tongue and cheek but still a honest assessment. The tiny points of everything has reduced granularity and you have these huge point swings from one jack to another. 50% more, the body is worth something, the pow 18 weapon is the main point - seems better to just throw more jacks on the board and have waves of them if the other option is 50% fewer jacks with some nearly pointless bells and whistles.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 3, 2017 16:05:26 GMT
Book doesn't give magic weapons. Also, i think you're selling the Sanctifier pretty short. My biggest issue with the Crusader is always threat; spd4 and 1" reach often means it's getting alpha'd, and because dice luck it never survives with cortex and\or right arm alive after getting charged. the +2" of threat on the Sanctifier is a big deal there, as is the amazing ability to fuel it with literally any infantry in your army, including stuff you kill yourself (pap a choir boy or 2 in the back with your caster, have a fully fueled jack. Or, more simply, put it behind your idrians because if your opponent isn't killing idrians they are losing.)
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Post by telmerand on Jun 3, 2017 16:10:08 GMT
O right Fire, humm....
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kostra
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 2
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Post by kostra on Jun 3, 2017 21:08:17 GMT
Crusaders' awesomeness is closely tied with their numbers, one is pretty bad and only worth if you can't afford anything shinier as he has no utility whatsoever and also has lowest range. But if you buy two or three, well, now we talking. Three heavies with base P+S18 weapon that cost just slightly more then average WJP value. You can leave it there and focus rest of your points on something else (after buying that choir) or just add some "stronger" jacks and use crusaders as counter charge (as they are still slow as all hell) or trading pieces, they won't usually die in one turn unless enemy will put his mind to it, sending two almost definitely costlier heavies to deal with one crusader? Where do I sign? I won't go into caster specifics but there are few points I rather disagree. * Templars are great for casters that still need to hang relatively close to the enemy (which is fair amount) for one reason or another or, provide just provide protection to key solos or attachments, making sure KE officer gets to use her mini-feat can be worth. You can hide behind ARM21 wall of steel or just keep near to bite one for the team. He's bit more durable and also has better weapon. 2" reach, especially on SPD4 jack can be huge for so many reasons, be it effectively worth two inches if you have to deal with rough terrain. Chain weapon is, granted, situational and beat back is pale comparison of what it used to be but it's still has it's uses in jack heavy meta. Every time I played him, I'm just testing list with the two of them, I've always got my money worth be it through raw beat sticking (which he is just insignificantly worse to the point of irrelevance).
* Guardian is also MAT7 and has powerful charge making him much better against... well anything that does't have DEF10. As I've mentioned I think that the one inch makes a lot of difference. Pitch is... well there are situation where just throwing the bastard is better then keep hitting him (control or throwing it as caster that hides behind and what have you) but it's critical so I kinda ignore it's existence. Set defense is actually pretty good as a lot of heavies has MAT6. Arc node depends strongly on a caster and it's need for offensive spells (Reznik, Sevy) or cycling buffs (Kreoss3) for them it,s 9/10. If you don't need arc node it's, well really low. Not that much but still not a good pick.
*Castigator, it's sad when you compare vent steam to his combustion but he's actually pretty golden, especially with casters that can boost damage (especially ignite and whatever Thyra has, and EoM, so I'm mentioning this because that's a quite a lot of casters so I'm mentioning it) but even without them, if we assume both have to charge and have only battle hymn on them, it's what? 27 for crusader compared to 23 on castigator on average against ARM20. That's a significant difference, but it's not that big. It will go up on against higher armor values but castigator still has double throw, which can be pretty powerful in scenarios or when you have to deal with multiple threats. Combustion is still nice to have against weapon master spam and such. As ashen veil... yeah it's pretty bad but it will force enemy to boost hits often enough and it's pretty good against a lot of hordes factions MAT6 will miss on fairly regular basis and if enemy misses justs once it pretty much payed itself of as it jsut saved you at least 5-6HP from average meele monster on average unboosted roll roll.
*Avatar two crusaders are better then Avatar but a couple of crusaders with avatar... unless your caster really needs all his jacks in battle group, he can be pretty sweet. Every sat he has is better then crusader's (including all-important MAT) and can help with focus starvation. He's not really that good on his own at the moment, but he can be worth in hard jack spam.
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Post by badmunkey on Jun 3, 2017 21:57:09 GMT
On the Indictor - Give Consecration a chance. It's one of the most amazing jacks I've played into hordes yet. The no spells/animi bubble is the real deal. One indictor is... OK, but in pairs, their value increases exponentially. Especially when you throw the book in there for good measure, you have a significant board presence where nothing can be cast. They really shine when attached to casters that really help deliver them - Amon and Durst are the best I've found so far, but they're fun with Sevy1 as well. Having a caster and two jacks not targetable by spells, combined with his feat and the consecration bubbles actually can be quite potent. It's too matchup dependant to be functional, but fun when you just want to say "nope."
Is good.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 3, 2017 22:28:35 GMT
Your assessment is pretty flawed on many points. To the point where it gets hard to take it seriously.
But let me point out some things that you may have not thought about. Your post seems really biasef because you're fighting khador heavy spam. But there are also warbeasts and other heavy spam to thing about. Guardian and it's mat7 really help put it ahead of the crusader when it comes to dealing with heavies that are defense 12 (cygnar and ret). The castigators ashen veil really helps out against hordes and it's immunity to fire really helps against legion shooting. Guardian's crit pitch is a throw and can knock down multiple models including their caster which can sometimes win you the game. Also if you take out their cortex and then end up knocking them down they are very much screwed. The crusader has no such option. Arc nodes are useful for a good number of spells like strangle hold, perdition,death sentence, brand of heresy, force hammer and other such offensive spells. Not all spells are about damage. Also all our buff spells are only range 6 being able to buff across the board is more useful than you give it credit.
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Post by telmerand on Jun 3, 2017 22:53:34 GMT
I agree, Guardian is better than Crusader. It has better charge (by one inch and we are competing against charges nearly double the Crusaders so that's basically nothing) and it has a better mat. My point is that is not 50% better than a Crusader. That's 1-2 points better than a Crusader. I'd consider 12 maybe 13 points for a Guardian if I needed the arc node (prefer the Revenger and I usually run 1). The cost for bells and whistles is not worth it - I'd rather have 5 Crusaders into Khador jack spam than 2 Guardians and the Avatar every time. That's my point. You don't even need to use all the Crusaders every turn, hold some back for counter charages and fear tactics. Park three on the point, more useful than a pair of Guardians.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 4, 2017 0:26:52 GMT
Again you seem pretty hung up on khador. Is prefer 2 guardians over 3 crusaders. Because I'm less likely to be missing my attacks against non-defense 10 things and you have a higher guarantee to make your charge attacks which you need to output some extra damage. Also if you're taking a revenger and a crusader why not take s guardian and save some points so you can do the job of the two together. Also against khador is the few places where threat ranges actually matter. Like they aren't guaranteed to outthreat us so the guardian's extra threat actually matters
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 4, 2017 1:54:43 GMT
To be fair, if your meta is like 3 khador players and a skorne player the crusader is probably your best option in most cases
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 4, 2017 3:14:06 GMT
Ooooo! Comparison of jacks! I wanna play.
So, to be fair, my meta consists of about 1-2 players of each faction (pretty much everyone has two factions, the only things I can't think of seeing on a regular basis are Merc lists, Gators (do see pigs), and Skorne). In general the meta favors balanced lists, with at least 1-3 units per list, but jack spam is occasionally seen.
I will start with the Crusader, and try and provide the expected damage versus a standard Cygnar Heavy (DEF12/ARM18), Khador Heavy (DEF10/ARM20), and a Circle Warpwolf (DEF14/ARM16), both at ranged and in melee, with battle, no boosts, without the charge. (I like numbers in debates).
Sample calculation (Crusader vs Cygnar): 6 to hit (72.2%) with open fist (P+S+battle+7-ARM, average of 5 damage) for 1 attack, plus 6 to hit (72.2%) with mace (P+S+2+7-ARM, average of 9 damage) for 4 attacks -> .722(1)(16+7-18) + .722(4)(20+7-18) = 29.6 damage.
So to start with, our base-line: Crusader: Overview - The cheapest heavy, a bare-knuckles brawler without the frills. Expects 29.6 damage vs Cygnar, 30.566 vs Khador, 20.96 vs Circle. Pros - It's cheap. Cons - Basically the smallest threat range in the game. It will be getting hit first. Grade - 5/10. Perfectly average (as appropriate for the baseline).
Castigator: A tad more expensive than Crusader, due to all its frills. Immune to fire, +1 SPD, Ashen Veil, continuous fire on fists, and Combustion. Expects 25.27 vs Cygnar, 22.9 vs Khador, 18.75 vs Circle. Pros - It's a problem-solver, and combos decent with Malekus. Continuous fire is good vs the light you had trouble hitting multiple times, Ashen Veil can help keep nearby things alive vs infantry (hitting DEF12 itself doesn't really help), Combustion is great for clearing jamming infantry or hitting high DEF/low ARM. Cons - Almost never will all of its extras come into play in a single game. Lower P+S means it can struggle vs Heavies. Grade - 6/10. Slightly better than Crusader, simply because it can solve problems the Crusader can't, while still performing ok vs heavies.
Dervish: Overview - A dodgy little jerk. Loves going after mid-range ARM, can struggle vs heavy armor, but can certainly scoot around. Expects 11.66 vs Cygnar, 5.833 vs Khador, and 17.5 vs Circle. Pros - +1 MAT makes it more accurate, +1 SPD lets it threat a bit more. Side Step + Parry makes it an absolute pain to lock down. Combo strike gives it some work vs heavies (vs Cygnar, for example, goes up to 16.7). Cheap. Cons - Fragile, still really does not want to go against anything but lights and select infantry without help. Grade - 5/10. Outside of select casters (Amon), I would never take it. The role is too easily filled by other options in the faction.
Devout: Overview - the first defensive jack! Its a bodyguard, and should probably never be treated otherwise. Expects 15 damage vs Cygnar, 8.776 (dice-7 is about 1, not 0, due to math reasons) vs Khador, 16.33 vs Circle. Pros - +1 MAT, +1 SPD. Defensive Strike, Shield Guard, and Spell Barrier make it a darn good bodyguard, and the shield makes it surprisingly survivable. Cons - Has a strictly defined role, struggles when venturing outside that role. Grade - 7/10. If your caster wants a bit more protection, seriously consider.
Guardian: Overview - An upgraded Crusader, it's the heavy arc node! Not too much to say, relatively basic. Expects 34.19 vs Cygnar, 30.1 vs Khador, 29.7 vs Circle. Pros - +1 MAT,+1 RNG on spear, arc node, set defense, critical pitch, AND powerful charge (not really needed for Khador, very good vs Circle). Best thing about Arc Node, imo, isn't chucking out offensive spells, but having the range to juggle upkeeps. Caster can't always be within 6", after all. Cons - Set Defense is silly, as DEF12 is unlikely to save it vs a dedicated attack. Arc Node gets shut off when engaged, which is where you want this thing to be. Bit expensive at 15 pts. Grade - 6/10. Would be higher stat-wise, but 15 points is difficult to justify for an arc node that wants to be in melee, and not arcing.
Indictor: Overview - A denial jack. Pretty similar to the Crusader, but with some extra bits. Expects 29.99 vs Cygnar, 25.2 vs Khador, 26.83 vs Circle. Pros - +1 MAT and a Blessed, Magical sword let it chew through some key pieces. Shield and Sacred Ward make it very durable (hahaha, take that Parasite). Cons - As slow as a Crusader. Consecration, while neat if it triggers, will almost never trigger (keep in mind, it works for spell casting units, not just casters). Grade - 7/10. The durability pushes this high for me. It is not easy to kill an ARM21 jack with Sacred Ward. This sucker can anchor a list easily.
Purifier: Overview - A dervish, but on FIRE! Expects 11.66 vs Cygnar, 5.833 vs Khador, and 17.5 vs Circle. Pros - +1 SPD, +1 MAT. Chain weapons help with shields. Immune to fire is maybe good (use him to line up good sprays for Cleansers?). Cons - super-specialized, and not in a good way. Flame Trail is super finniky to get to work, overtake is...ok..., and still low P+S without the combo strike of a Dervish to fix. Grade - 2/10. Just don't. It seems like such a cool idea, but it takes a TON of work to make a Purifier the right choice.
Reckoner: Overview - A shooting heavy! The gold standard in Mk2, Reckoner has lost some shine in Mk3, but is still a fun choice. Expects (shooting) 2.9 vs Cygnar, 2.5 vs Khador, and 1.9 vs Circle. Expects (melee) 23.1 vs Cygnar, 21.99 vs Khador, 16.66 vs Circle. Pros - +1 SPD, +1 RNG gets us to respectable threat ranges! Immune to fire is neat, flare on the gun is very helpful for any further shooting (or attacks in general). Cons - Ashen Veil is rarely significant. 16 pts is a pretty penny. Amusingly can remove stealth, but it itself cannot ignore stealth. Grade - 7/10. Absolutely necessary for gunline (Flare helps out a ton), and wildly outclassed in melee. Personally never take, but I like melee lists.
Redeemer: Overview - The shootingist of jacks, this is basically an artillery piece. Inaccurate, but devastating when it hits. Expects (shooting) 6.67 damage vs Cygnar, 2.72 vs Khador, 7.5 vs Circle (I cheated, and boosted each shot to hit). Expects (melee) 11.55 vs Cygnar, 7.33 vs Khador, 9.99 vs Circle. Pros - Super-long range, 3 shots at AOE3 with 0 focus. Cons - inaccurate, really wants focus to make sure it hits the target. A very poor choice vs heavies, but devastating vs lights and infantry. 11 pts. Grade - 5/10. Given the prevalence of heavies, I feel its role has been restricted. Come SR2017, I expect this to go up as infantry return.
Repenter: Overview - The cheapest spray jack (to my recollection). He's a hoot and a half. Expects (shooting) 1.74 vs Cygnar, 0.833 vs Khador, 1.385 vs Circle. Expects (melee) 11.55 vs Cygnar, 7.33 vs Khador, 9.99 vs Circle. Pros - SPD5 + SP8 means it can tag models 13" away, or go after jacks + their backfield support. Sprays can hit multiple models at once. Cheap! Cons - needs help (Malekus) to get the most out of the POW12 spray. Fragile, and very sad if the gun gets shot off top of 2 (has happened 3 times to me in the last 4 weeks...against the same player!) Grade - 8/10. If you can find the points, squeeze this bad boy in. Sprays are a wonderful, glorious thing.
Revenger: Overview - The light arc node! Expects 13 damage vs Cygnar, 8.24 vs Khador, 11.66 vs Circle. Pros - +1SPD, +1 RNG gives it a 10" threat. Arc node is nice, and the shield lets it stick around for quite a while. Plus Powerful Charge helps to land the charge. Cons - Its another arc node that wants to be in melee. Repel is a rule that is very situational. Grade - 3/10. If you want an arc node, sure? Better off with Blessings of Vengeance or a Guardian, though.
Sanctifier: Overview - A basically self-sufficient jack, that is also pretty much the only answer to incorporeal. Expects 23.83 vs Cygnar, 21.08 vs Khador, 17.9 vs Circle. Pros - +1 SPD, +1 RNG. Immune to Fire and Ashen Veil are cute. Stops Incorporeal, and has a magic weapon. Can run itself with souls (even friendly! I sacrifice you, Choir grunt #38750, to the mighty Sanctifier!), making it a fantastic jack to marshal. Cons - Most of its special rules (Immune to fire, ashen veil, magic weapon, exorcist) are super-situational. Lower P+S. Grade - 7/10. It's a burden-free heavy jack. 'Nuff said.
Templar: Overview - The original tank jack, this sucker takes a beating and keeps on ticking. Expects 26 vs Cygnar, 23.83 vs Khador, 19.16 vs Circle. Pros - +1 RNG. Chain weapon helps vs shields, while its own shield means its ARM21, or tough as hell. Shield Guard helps protect squishies, or mess somebody up when trying to drag a target. Beat back is a helpful trick in scenario play. Cons - basically as slow as a Crusader, it will be getting charged. 15 points. Grade: 7/10. I value this as much as an Indictor. Easier to kill, but more of a team player with Shield Guard. Stick a Mechanic next to it, and watch it never die (quite good vs Storm Lances, btw).
Vanquisher: Overview - The heavy AOE lobber. A classic, the shine on this one died down a little as Feora2 fell. Expect (shooting) 2.91 vs Cygnar, 2.5 vs Khador, and 1.9 vs Circle. Expect (melee) 20.22 vs Cygnar, 18.33 vs Khador, 14.99 vs Circle. Pros - The continuous fire 4" AOE is truly glorious vs infantry. Add in a 2", P+S18 chain weapon Thresher, and you have an infantry-killing machine (literally). Cons - Infantry is less common now, removing its preferred target. SUPER expensive. Grade - 4/10. If infantry returns in greater numbers, this will rise. But for now, leave it at home.
Vigilant: Overview - The other bodyguard jack. Tough as nails, does its job well, but certainly not made of fighting heavies. Expect 7.22 vs Cygnar, 4.53 vs Khador, 8.332 vs Circle (don't get this in melee). Pros - mobile cover and girded is a heck of a good defense for your caster. And with 2 shields, this is a tough cookie to crack. Cons - The cover provided by the Vigilant is relatively easy to negate (knock down or drag out), and it sucks in combat. Grade - 4/10. Some prefer it to the Devout, but I just don't see it. I prefer to have a model that can actually DO damage if needed late game.
Note: Yes, this is biased. I'm human. If it helps, I've recently been playing lots of Malekus (Journeyman league to bring in new players), and before that lots of Tristan2 and Thyra, both of which are pure melee. So that's likely coloring my grades.
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Post by telmerand on Jun 4, 2017 4:30:09 GMT
"Cons - Basically the smallest threat range in the game. It will be getting hit first."
As will pretty much any Menoth Jack as we don't have much in the way of speed buffs from things like beastmasters/most every Khador caster/other stuff. As Menoth, I expect to receive the charge pretty often. We don't have terrain gen like Circle/Trolls to forestall charges or other effects.
If one assumes all Menoth Jacks are going to receive the charge - Crusader is best hands down.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 4, 2017 5:26:33 GMT
"Cons - Basically the smallest threat range in the game. It will be getting hit first." As will pretty much any Menoth Jack as we don't have much in the way of speed buffs from things like beastmasters/most every Khador caster/other stuff. As Menoth, I expect to receive the charge pretty often. We don't have terrain gen like Circle/Trolls to forestall charges or other effects. If one assumes all Menoth Jacks are going to receive the charge - Crusader is best hands down. Really? All that, and you're going to look at one of the very first things written, and dismiss everything else? Furthermore, I do not agree with you on this. Our jacks can get up to a 10" threat (Reckoner and Sanctifier, off top of head), which matches or exceeds most jack unmodified threst ranges. Beyond that, you can actually play the game rather than do this theoretical list comparison, and force a situation where they have to enter your threat range and/or accept a bad trade. Beyond THAT, the Crusader is a good cheap beat stick. That is all. There are other roles, such as being part of a gunline, or an arc node, or an anchor to hold and endure, or a protector for the caster, all of which the Crusader would suck at, because that's not its role. Beyond THAT, even in taking the charge, the Crusader isn't the best. Against warjacks, that goes to the Templar/Indictor (there is an argument to be made for 3 Crusaders vs 2 Templars, I personally prefer 2 Templars). Against units, every one of the jacks with Ashen Veil is better. If you want anecdotal evidence for this conclusion, I've found great success having a Templar in a Tristan list going against Storm Lances. They charge, do little more than half health (less if I put the ARM buff on it for ARM23), and then can never leave (threat of free strike), nor have the power to finish off the Templar. One of the biggest boogy men in Warmchine, stopped by a 15 put jack you feel is worthless. if my previous response, and this one, are too long, let me summarize: Every jack has a role. Most of them are good at that role. You have admittedly been facing a bunch of Khador, and so are judging Crusaders as the best in an environment where they are made to excel, and judging every other jack unfairly for not performing to the same level in an environment that is unfriendly. Put another way: you are in a field of nails, have a hammer, and are judging the screwdriver as useless.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Jun 4, 2017 5:40:06 GMT
Reckoner: Would run with Sunbursts and redeemers with anyone but Kreoss 1. This may seem pedantic, but it's the only statement I disagree with passionately enough to respond to. Plenty of Kreoss 1 lists run a Reckoner, and for good reason - flare opens up your assassination threat to stealthed warnouns when combined with Rhoven.
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Post by telmerand on Jun 4, 2017 6:26:23 GMT
Put another way: you are in a field of nails, have a hammer, and are judging the screwdriver as useless. Naw, I'm just saying I'm not going to pay way more for an electric screwdriver when my manual one does the same job for way cheaper. Besides, I said redeemers and Reckoner were 10/10 for comparison - I also said Revenger is solid. But I'd rather pay 10pts for a brick to receive the enemy charge than pay 15 pt's for the same brick that's going to be no harder if the enemy has a chain weapon, ignores that brick to go after another control point, so on. So many of PoM's abilities (like Ashen Veil) are situational - but more so are far too costly when compared to the baseline Crusader. The body and pow 18 weapon of the Crusader is worth the vast majority - adding a shield and shield guard is not worth 50% more. Simply is not and a charge range of 10 with no ability to get pathfinder - naw, PoM jacks should assume they will receive charges. Why I gave Reckoner and Redeemer 10's - I feel our gun-line is solid and I'd much rather have some Crusaders hanging around to punish things deep striking on Reckoners than have something like a Guardian keep me from having a Sunburst on the table. The value of the Crusader is too much - only melee jack in my eyes outside of the character jacks.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 4, 2017 7:32:08 GMT
Ok as you wish stubborn-kun... have fun trying to out armor scew Khador ( the kings of heavy spam) I still disagree with you since i believe the Guardian is superior and i actually use it against things other than khador
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