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Post by MessOfMinions on Mar 8, 2017 13:20:24 GMT
So I feel like this goes without saying, but amon ad raza in creators might is very powerful. My question is, is it too powerful, and if so what needs to be changed to turn that down and still keep it reasonable? So I've only played about 6 games with the man, the myth, the legend this edition, and have only lost once so far to another amon player, who I have since adapted my list towards. Basically, I fear for the realization that pp has gone to far with this list and am curious as to what you guys think can be done to tone him down without making him useless. I think removing field marshal parry from him and placing it on his feat would be more than enough to fix him, but what do you y'all think?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 8, 2017 13:23:14 GMT
I feel like his jacks are just a tad too cheap (like 1p). But this kind of discussion is really not that useful in the new forum since this is feedback PP will not ever see.
So let me ask a different question: What do you really dread seeing on the other side of the table when playing Amon?
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Post by MessOfMinions on Mar 8, 2017 13:34:34 GMT
To be honest, not too much, I guess lots of feedback attacks, or haley2 maybe? Honestly I don't see too many bad matchups for the guy, infantry spam could hurt, but that's what reznik2 is for. I honestly think he can get away with way too much focus expenditures without any consequences on his part. Putting him behind a vigilant with the book nearby is often more than enough to stop any super potent ranged assassination, and again things like butcher3 are managed fairly easily by reznik2. I suppose retribution poses a problem with Kalyssa and things like battle mages, but unless I see a list made to counter amon I don't see much reason to be afraid.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Mar 8, 2017 15:37:34 GMT
Haley2 and things that outthreat you are really annoying I have found. Stormlances, Uhlans, Una2 (yes, even post-nerf) come to mind. What is the list that you are using and how have you changed it to adapt it for the mirror match?
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Post by MessOfMinions on Mar 8, 2017 15:48:06 GMT
Sure, these seem like fair assessments, basically my previous incarnation had WAY to much support bloat with two choir units and really expensive heavies, I'm now running:
Theme: The Creator's Might 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29 - Templar - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Sanctifier - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Crusader - PC: 10 - Crusader - PC: 10 - Crusader - PC: 10 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Vigilant - PC: 9
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
THEME: The Creator's Might
Basically it's just about cost efficient trades and getting the most threat possible while maintaining hitting power. The Templar is a great fortify target, and in the mirror makes enliven trades better, the sanctifier is the fastest option we have for cheap (minus devouts), and is great if you run into incorporeal spam and are list locked. The book is vital and should not be ignored or overlooked. Crusaders are just good. Basically the only way I would make this any more optimized is too add three more Crusaders I'm place of the two non Crusader heavies, but that is way to much overkill.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 8, 2017 16:55:00 GMT
Amon is fine. He still has personal survivability problems because he tends to spend most of his focus and he needs to be pretty far forward. We have more ways to mitigate this, but its still a weakness that anybody can exploit.
Plus IMO he is actually far stronger outside theme when he can take some screening Idrians and Monks to help the scenario game.
Really Protectorate has nothing thats even close to OP.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 8, 2017 20:33:49 GMT
Whether or not he is OP is frankly irrelevant. We have no way of changing that. What I would like to know is how to play against him. I had one game into him post-Skorne-Errata. I got the alpha with 5 heavies under Enrage+Prodding+Zaadesh2Feat and it simply wasn't enough. So I think the "jam all heavies in" approach is simply not viable. I think our Infantry is very good into him, but I don't want to count on them into a faction that has Sevy2 and Cleansers with Hand of Fate as common lists. I take it shooting isn't really an option either? Maybe with a Mammoth+Soulward?
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 8, 2017 20:45:09 GMT
Whether or not he is OP is frankly irrelevant. We have no way of changing that. What I would like to know is how to play against him. I had one game into him post-Skorne-Errata. I got the alpha with 5 heavies under Enrage+Prodding+Zaadesh2Feat and it simply wasn't enough. So I think the "jam all heavies in" approach is simply not viable. I think our Infantry is very good into him, but I don't want to count on them into a faction that has Sevy2 and Cleansers with Hand of Fate as common lists. I take it shooting isn't really an option either? Maybe with a Mammoth+Soulward? For skorne (as you are in the menoth forums)? Shooting can work, and that much damage buffing should be enough as well. what was the list you played against, and how where your dice?
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spideredd
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Post by spideredd on Mar 8, 2017 22:52:51 GMT
Really Protectorate has nothing thats even close to OP. I agree. The best that the Protetorate has to offer in terms of power are Amon, Idrians and Punch-Monks, and none of those are really bending the meta.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 3:06:44 GMT
Whether or not he is OP is frankly irrelevant. We have no way of changing that. What I would like to know is how to play against him. I had one game into him post-Skorne-Errata. I got the alpha with 5 heavies under Enrage+Prodding+Zaadesh2Feat and it simply wasn't enough. So I think the "jam all heavies in" approach is simply not viable. I think our Infantry is very good into him, but I don't want to count on them into a faction that has Sevy2 and Cleansers with Hand of Fate as common lists. I take it shooting isn't really an option either? Maybe with a Mammoth+Soulward? Well, you gotta put pressure on Amon himself. Make him afraid to get the synergy bubble up there. Shooting is actually a pretty good way to go. Unless Amon spends a ton of points on both a Vigilant and some shield guards its a weakness. And I personally do not spend the points for both shield guards and a vigilant, and I think a lot of people do not either. Amon is the weak point of his lists. Especially if its the creators wrath theme force.
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zich
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Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 9, 2017 10:17:54 GMT
Yeah, these are the Protectorate forums, consider me a Spy from the eastern deserts . In truth I just like having an opposite perspective on a matchup I am having trouble with and felt this was the perfect opportunity to sneak that request in. I'm curious about the shooting suggestion. I don't feel like that's an option with the Choir existing. So how would you go about this? Pressuring Amon sounds like a good idea. I'm messing around with Morghoul2 anyway so might aswell have Ghost Molik do the job of keeping Amon honest.
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spideredd
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Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 9, 2017 11:05:38 GMT
I'm curious about the shooting suggestion. I don't feel like that's an option with the Choir existing. So how would you go about this? In Creator's Wrath, there tend to be very few screening units, so it's easier to get a line of sight to the Choir and shoot them. Granted, they get Reposition[3], but that on it's own won't keep them safe. You also have the option of shooting Amon himself. Basically use the go-to strategies for dealing with the Protectorate, shoot the Choir or shoot the caster.
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Post by MessOfMinions on Mar 9, 2017 13:55:56 GMT
So one of my games was into lylth2 with lots of shooting, and despite me playing very forward and aggressively, she could not find a good way to get amon dead. I'm not saying that pressuring amon won't work, but the vigilant book and fortify combo make it extremely difficult to happen. Even just the one Templar was enough to push forward enough to make Lylth scared, and it took her feat to even kill the book effectively, which still left amon sitting at def 20, immune blast. I have no doubt that caster like haley2 who could tk the vigilant away have better game. But he's still not easy to assassinate at range.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 16:41:29 GMT
The thing is that IMO spending points on a Vigilant is a waste. Too much support bloat if you have 1-2 shield guards AND a vigilant protecting your caster, on top of the usual support. Thats why I pair Amon with a caster who doesn't care about shooting to cover his weakness and save the vigilant's points for something else. Its a more streamlined list overall. Granted, I won't drop it into its bad matchups then. Yeah, these are the Protectorate forums, consider me a Spy from the eastern deserts . In truth I just like having an opposite perspective on a matchup I am having trouble with and felt this was the perfect opportunity to sneak that request in. I'm curious about the shooting suggestion. I don't feel like that's an option with the Choir existing. So how would you go about this? Pressuring Amon sounds like a good idea. I'm messing around with Morghoul2 anyway so might aswell have Ghost Molik do the job of keeping Amon honest. Shoot Amon, not the jacks. Choir does jack-squat for casters. And Skorne has a solo who can hand out magic weapons if you need to shoot the jacks. Molik Karn under Makaeda would be a very good way to make Amon afraid. Long threat range vs a list that has plenty of side-step targets. And Amon himself is pretty squishy. Thats actually one of the main reasons not to run Amon in theme. The Theme force just doesn't give you much to screen with.
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Lanz
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Post by Lanz on Mar 9, 2017 16:44:52 GMT
I think amon is fine, but the theme list is just too convenient for him. He was already good without it.
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