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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 30, 2017 16:24:17 GMT
Siege vs a conquest with Siege weapons. Pow 14 on his feat is dice off 4, average 18 damage. Triumph is +1 to that. Almost seems close to worth 20 points. (for comparison, dynamo with nemo 3s feat does 26.5 damage with just boosting 3 damage rolls.) It appears you did the math, saw big numbers, didn't put them into context and then figured your argument was over. * There are mathematical limits to what's allowed in terms of damage output. I do not know what the limits are, but I know they exist, because I was told that by a PP developer. * Huge bases are centerpiece models for PP. PP has goals around how often they are used. A game of telephone got played around what those goals are, but I fully believe they exist. As proof I offer the Battle Engine CID * The damage potential to huge bases(arcane shielded Storm Strider with Arcane Shield from full to dead in a single activation) exists with every Cygnar caster on every turn without factoring in buffs or debuffs * There are huge based casters I mean, you can say that. But then you can look at the Marauder. Without feat or spells, 2 of them fully loaded can pretty easily kill a huge-based anything.
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Post by danfromchicago on May 30, 2017 16:59:49 GMT
There is a significant difference between being able to melee something off the table in multiple activations and being able to shoot it off the table in a single activation
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 30, 2017 17:27:21 GMT
I mean, you can say that. But then you can look at the Marauder. Without feat or spells, 2 of them fully loaded can pretty easily kill a huge-based anything. People very much overestimate Mauraders. Plys 2 Fully Loaded Mauraders is 20 Points, 4 Focus, and the odds you get from 2 Mauraders doing that is 33.2%
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 30, 2017 17:31:38 GMT
There is a significant difference between being able to melee something off the table in a single activation and being able to shoot it off the table in a single activation Totally, but Triumph with Seige weapon and Seige's feat doesn't kill something in a single activation. Personally, I think seige weapon is a dumb rule. It skews damage too hard against things that are supposed to be durable. I think the Marauder should lose it a get a rule that lets it charge huge bases for free. Back to Triumph. I'm on board for swapping rapid fire for reload 1. And arcane precision doesn't suit his fluff. He's famous for shooting at walls. I'd say swap that for crit smite on the gun, and drop his cost to 17. And maybe give his shield cortex damage. I feel like Se1ge needs something, but I don't know what. Maybe a good character jack would be enough.
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Post by danfromchicago on May 30, 2017 18:37:22 GMT
I doubt Major Siege will change. There's intimation in the podcast that Colonel Siege needs mechanical assistance of some kind. We might see another caster with Man in the Machine? I think it's likely that he'll have repairable at the least.
Having played Convergence, repairable on a caster can be very nice indeed
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 30, 2017 21:24:52 GMT
I doubt Major Siege will change. There's intimation in the podcast that Colonel Siege needs mechanical assistance of some kind. We might see another caster with Man in the Machine? I think it's likely that he'll have repairable at the least. Having played Convergence, repairable on a caster can be very nice indeed I think he'll definitely have heavier armor. I don't know that his injuries were severe enough for life support, but he could certainly have mechanical movement systems. Fingers crossed for minuteman jump pack.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 30, 2017 23:13:11 GMT
I doubt Major Siege will change. There's intimation in the podcast that Colonel Siege needs mechanical assistance of some kind. We might see another caster with Man in the Machine? I think it's likely that he'll have repairable at the least. Having played Convergence, repairable on a caster can be very nice indeed I think he'll definitely have heavier armor. I don't know that his injuries were severe enough for life support, but he could certainly have mechanical movement systems. Fingers crossed for minuteman jump pack. If he has something worth delivering, then yes, Bounding Leap would be very cool. If he just has a meh melee weapon and a meh gun, then what's the point of bounding leap?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 30, 2017 23:25:46 GMT
I think he'll definitely have heavier armor. I don't know that his injuries were severe enough for life support, but he could certainly have mechanical movement systems. Fingers crossed for minuteman jump pack. If he has something worth delivering, then yes, Bounding Leap would be very cool. If he just has a meh melee weapon and a meh gun, then what's the point of bounding leap? Cheap way of getting your caster to safety after using abilities?
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 31, 2017 14:54:28 GMT
What I want....
Trencher Infantry, include CA and WA: No changes are required, for they are already fine. If there should be a change, then change Cautious Advance that allow the affected model to do either ranged combat action or special action, rather than make a normal ranged attack will be the only needs for them. Their uses are divided, either only pops smoke but do nothing else, and advance-Dig In-shoot but not any smokes. Why they have to do only one of them?
Trencher Commandos: I think that they are the hardest model to give a role. I can't get the point on them. They are always mediocre, because there is no sure place for them. Although they are RAT 6 now but it doesn't enough to give them a place in Cygnar. Give their WA Take Up again would make them somewhat better, but it doesn't solve their main problem. The only advantage of them is having Stealth, but they can't do something with it. And they are not so good at killing something than the others either. Trencher Infantry with CA is simply better than them, able to kill the enemy infantry as much as them, and able to crack armor as well, and able to withstand the enemy shootings better than them as well.
If they can claim some advantage over the other units - especially the other Trencher units, then it would be their melee prowess. But as you know, 0.5" melee range is just a kidding for damaging armors(also they are not intended to deal with it as well), and we don't need the anti infantry melee solution at all for we can do it by a myriads of tools to deal with in distance. Also, although Trenchers are always need to avoid the melee combat, but their MAT 6 is enough to retaliate the other infantry with DEF around of 13, so they don't need the melee specialist unit that only able to dispatch the enemy units.
Anyway, check their fluff to think about their role... They are a special force division of Trencher regiment, work behind of the enemy line.
There are some examples to give them something. It can be a basic addition, but else they can have it by their new CA(if they get any of ). It seems that they needs at least two or three to be worth consideration.
-give Ambush, because of the fluff. Although I think that they can get it by Theme Force benefit. -give Reposition[3"], and ensure that they can shoot down the enemy and retreat safely, unlike Trencher Infantry that might charged after their shooting. -give Backstab, and you can put them on a flank and force your opponent to not expose their back. With grenade they can even hurt a heavy, although you will need to do something more. -give some kind of anti armor special melee attack/action, like as 'cause some damage/make a boosted POW 14 damage roll to an enemy warjack/warbeast/battle engine B2B with it'. Then they can also deal with the armor in a pinch, which is always the weak spot of the Trencher regiment. They have a grenade, so in the fluff they may use the explosive in the close distance. -replace Stealth by Force Barrier. It would be not much suited for the fluff, but it can prevent them to killing themselves by their own grenade, and also give them a reason to stick with a forest as well. Although Stealth is more suited for the offensive move. -give Parry to not stalled by the petty threat. -give Quake on their grenade. Then one of them can advance and knockdown the enemy. It would make them a decent supporter. Avenger have the longer range, and is able to boost its attack roll, so I think that Quake on only a RNG 6 weapon seems fine. The problem is they can be a unit with a RNG 6+4 weapon with Quake, with Snipe casters, but consider the failure of Stormsmith Grenadiers it would be fine.
And more...
Trencher Cannon Crew - give them either Advance Deployment or Cautious Advance to fix them to be fit with the fluff, as well as let them have Dig In while able to shoot.
Trencher Chain Gun Crew - Reduce the point by 4 would be required. And maybe increase RNG by 12?
Trencher Master Gunner - fix him to bring back Dig In.
Trench Buster - reduce point cost by 4 because he is full combat solo and has only 5 damage box. Also give Girded again to protect friendly Trenchers to not get roasted by his own grenade when he charges enemy in melee with them.
Captain Maxwell Finn - No changes at all, for he is already decent.
Grenadier - Cautious Advance... again? That's all.
Captain Jonas Murdoch - Reduce the point by 1 points, maybe, but not only him, but also most CA in the game needs that as well.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 31, 2017 15:33:14 GMT
Been thinking about this a bit more and I think the Commandoes will have a place with Siege 1 in theme, if they all run into his Foxhole, then they can have cover, stealth, immunity to blast, tough (potential feign death) and rise, could work as a screening unit.
I wish they would change foxhole to restrict it to not being able to place on enemy models only, I understand they don't want the old drop the enemy into a Fox hole and shoot their caster in the face, but as it currently is it seems a bit restrictive to your own stuff.
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 15:42:37 GMT
CID Begins - SS needs to be buffed to compete - SS buffed - SS used as a yard stick to show another model is not at its level - ...
Enjoy "reasonable" power creep...
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 31, 2017 15:49:06 GMT
CID Begins - SS needs to be buffed to compete - SS buffed - SS used as a yard stick to show another model is not at its level - ... Enjoy "reasonable" power creep... Yes power creep is a thing and something game designers should be very wary of, however I don't see how buffing an utterly useless unplayable piece of trash, that would never in a month of Sundays see the table, would contribute to power creep. Citing power creep is not a good enough reason to not alter models.
Bear in mind PP also has a system of Dynamic Updates and errata for models that turn out to be too good, and have used it fairly recently to reign models in and counter power creep.
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 16:30:13 GMT
Depends on what "unplayable piece of trash" is... If unplayable trash is something that is not the best option with at least 1 caster then it's pretty hard to make models... SS shoots 2xPOW 15 that really are 2xPOW 17, gets D3 focus each turn by not aiming and enjoys a lot of immunities. It's a pretty high bar for any shooty jack that comes along.
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Post by bluebarren on May 31, 2017 21:39:11 GMT
I think he was saying that the old ss was unplayable trash and needed a buff ( like many of the BE) to see some table time and that it being buffed isn't a good example of power creep.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 31, 2017 21:44:42 GMT
Depends on what "unplayable piece of trash" is... If unplayable trash is something that is not the best option with at least 1 caster then it's pretty hard to make models... SS shoots 2xPOW 15 that really are 2xPOW 17, gets D3 focus each turn by not aiming and enjoys a lot of immunities. It's a pretty high bar for any shooty jack that comes along. Stop including the firefly in damage calculations to inflate power numbers, it makes your argument unreasonable.
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