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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 25, 2017 21:12:32 GMT
So with the new Trencher theme force and releases, plus all the current models going into CID, what would you change about our current Trencher Models? here is what I would do
Trencher Infantry - Fine as they are
Trencher Commandoes - I think their rules are fine, it is just a lack of infantry (their natural prey) that make them less attractive, that might all change with SR17 so I would leave them as they are, maybe a point reduction of 1.
Trencher Cannon - Give it Advance Deploy, Dig in is a waste of time on it at the moment.
Trencher Chain Gun - Same sort of problem as Commandoes, maybe could do with a slight increase in range (maybe 12") or a slight increase in pow (pow 11), or just a points reduction down to 4.
Master Gunner - Fine
Trench Buster - oh god where to start! ideally I would want girded back, but if that is not going to happen then an increase to 8 boxes, and maybe a reduction to 5 points.
Finn - Fine
Grenadier - Fine
Gibbs - Meow
Murdoch - Who is that again?
Trencher infantry are close to perfect, although I find their Minifeat rarely to be worth it and would love for something else. Trenxher Commandos have a lot of sweet stuff, but its like the greatest hood ornaments on a meh car. Beneath the stealth, the pathfinder, the tough, there is a unit that just isn't worth delivering. Yes they theoretically kill any infantry model but is that exactly something you would ever pay a premium for? Not really, imo. Charging infantry in to kill enemy infantry is always the least valuable way to play a unit because shooting is more effective at removing infantry models and the times where a commando would be more efficient isn't worth the expense because often the commandos die after being brought in. Commandos need to be changed to have slightly more game vs multiwounders and more ways to keep them alive after delivery. A UA would certainly help but inflates their cost. The trencher cannon is meh, it lacks the range, power or survivability to have a good place currently. It can get 2 shots for a the price of a master Gunner but then the points don't make the cut as that is more points than a charger. I would say ad isn't necessary, but a range increase would rock. 15", and then a Pow increase to Pow 14 and add the cautious advance order so it can dig in and shoot. It would be worth it, then. The chain gun is closer to playable, cautious advance would really help. Master Gunner is ok, I just have a dream to make siege (and kara if I were greedy) were classed as weapon crew warcasters in order for him to use battery fire on them. Finn is more funny than good, but I'd rather not lose what he has. Gibbs is cool, he will certainly be taken. Murdoch is ok, although his Minifeat has the annoying drawback that either the unit walks or he is exposed. I hope pp add a merc unit to gravediggers, like Ogryn assault Corps, and give us reason to bring them.
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Post by danfromchicago on May 25, 2017 21:43:16 GMT
Vet Leader applies to models not units. While a unit lead by Murdoch is a trencher unit, since it has a trencher model, the only trencher model is Murdoch which means that only Murdoch would get the vet leader. So Vet leader would not be a problem at all. Operating Theater allows you to take a non-drudge unit lead by a Dominator. Blindwater Congregation allows you to take a merc jack marshalled by Moorclaw. I don't expect that the benefits will include a merc unit lead by Murdoch, but it certainly could Yeah, I know. If you would read some of the above posts, you will see that we were discussing the possible change to Murdoch that would allow him to give the Trencher tag to Merc units. If that were the case, then Veteran Leader would affect them. You are conflating two ideas. It would not matter if he gave the trencher tag to the unit. He does that already, since he is a Trencher model. It doesn't matter at the moment since there are no effects in MKIII which specifically target Trencher units. If he had Tactics: Trencher, he would then give the tag to the models in the unit and thus Veteran Leader would apply to the entire unit. Now they could do that, so long as they felt that giving a +1 to the Devil Dogs, Forgeguard, Steelhead Riflemen, Aiyana and Holt, and the rest ALL was acceptable. I don't think they will. But they could.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 25, 2017 21:52:26 GMT
Yeah, I know. If you would read some of the above posts, you will see that we were discussing the possible change to Murdoch that would allow him to give the Trencher tag to Merc units. If that were the case, then Veteran Leader would affect them. You are conflating two ideas. It would not matter if he gave the trencher tag to the unit. He does that already, since he is a Trencher model. It doesn't matter at the moment since there are no effects in MKIII which specifically target Trencher units. If he had Tactics: Trencher, he would then give the tag to the models in the unit and thus Veteran Leader would apply to the entire unit. Now they could do that, so long as they felt that giving a +1 to the Devil Dogs, Forgeguard, Steelhead Riflemen, Aiyana and Holt, and the rest ALL was acceptable. I don't think they will. But they could. I believe units are no longer the same tags as models they contain.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on May 25, 2017 22:41:31 GMT
Trench Buster's needs 8 wounds and girded back or dropped to 4-5 points. Rohvens dudes get 8 wounds so and are always weapon masters so this shouldn't be to big of a stretch.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 25, 2017 22:48:21 GMT
Trench Buster's needs 8 wounds and girded back or dropped to 4-5 points. Rohvens dudes get 8 wounds so and are always weapon masters so this shouldn't be to big of a stretch. Agreed, what annoys me the most is now he does not want to use his assault shot in case the trencher giving him flank dies to the blast, so stupid!
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 26, 2017 0:19:57 GMT
You are conflating two ideas. It would not matter if he gave the trencher tag to the unit. He does that already, since he is a Trencher model. It doesn't matter at the moment since there are no effects in MKIII which specifically target Trencher units. If he had Tactics: Trencher, he would then give the tag to the models in the unit and thus Veteran Leader would apply to the entire unit. Now they could do that, so long as they felt that giving a +1 to the Devil Dogs, Forgeguard, Steelhead Riflemen, Aiyana and Holt, and the rest ALL was acceptable. I don't think they will. But they could. I believe units are no longer the same tags as models they contain. Exactly.
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Post by danfromchicago on May 26, 2017 3:36:48 GMT
Perhaps that changed in MKIII then. In any case they could include a Merc unit with Murdoch. There's precedent.
But if there's one model I'd like to see changes for, it's Triumph.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 26, 2017 4:57:25 GMT
Perhaps that changed in MKIII then. In any case they could include a Merc unit with Murdoch. There's precedent. But if there's one model I'd like to see changes for, it's Triumph. Remove rapid fire, gain dual shot. Gain siege weapons, gain powerful shot.
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Post by jisidro on May 26, 2017 10:47:16 GMT
Perhaps that changed in MKIII then. In any case they could include a Merc unit with Murdoch. There's precedent. But if there's one model I'd like to see changes for, it's Triumph. Remove rapid fire, gain dual shot. Gain siege weapons, gain powerful shot.
More threat, a fully boosted shot with no caster input and a situational bonus... Any model that couldn't use that?
Powerful shot needs a reevaluation IMO... Gained a lot with power-up and Chargers are not showing that fact.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 26, 2017 11:02:53 GMT
Remove rapid fire, gain dual shot. Gain siege weapons, gain powerful shot.
More threat, a fully boosted shot with no caster input and a situational bonus... Any model that couldn't use that?
Powerful shot needs a reevaluation IMO... Gained a lot with power-up and Chargers are not showing that fact.
No, but there is very little to do to triumph as he is so devoid of character or interest that the only thing you can do is make him an awe inspiring gun. Powerful shot at least has a funny interaction with sieges bond. Powerful shot needs re-evaluation? What? It's a good rule but its not op. I love chargers and I recognise that they are strong, but balanced. Just because something is good doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.
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Post by jisidro on May 26, 2017 11:40:34 GMT
Powerful shot is not about awe inspiring, it's about focus efficiency. Dual shot is about more threat... Siege Weapons is thematic but the idea of siege cannon charging/trampling kinda kills the idea when taken together.
He needs something, but more threat/more dmg/less resource drain is not a suggestion, it's power-creep.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 26, 2017 11:51:20 GMT
Powerful shot is not about awe inspiring, it's about focus efficiency. Dual shot is about more threat... Siege Weapons is thematic but the idea of siege cannon charging/trampling kinda kills the idea when taken together. He needs something, but more threat/more dmg/less resource drain is not a suggestion, it's power-creep. Dual shot isn't dual attack. Making a completely underpowered model more powerful isn't power creep, it's balance.
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Post by danfromchicago on May 26, 2017 15:51:59 GMT
Have you done any math on this? Weaponmaster against huge bases + an additional attack in an ~18-22" bubble? At POW 15. Rolling 4 dice you have about a 10% of rolling a 19 or better. Which is 15 points of damage to a Stormstrider.
In fact, it is mathmatically possible to shoot a Stormstrider off the table in a single unbuffed activation even if it has Arcane Shield.
There are huge based casters, and you also want to add in powerful shot.
Would you care to re-evaluate your wishlist?
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 26, 2017 15:54:55 GMT
Commandoes could use prey and ambush. I hope they get those from a CA and/theme benefit. Probably not going to happen as Ambush is a benefit in the Bump In The Night theme for Murder Crows in Grymkin and is limited to a single unit of them. Aside from the Merc Trenchers also getting Rise I'm not aware of any duplicate effects in the theme forces. Save
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Post by danfromchicago on May 26, 2017 15:58:05 GMT
Honestly, I think a point drop to 18 might be all Triumph really needs.
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