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Post by Manathern on May 18, 2017 13:43:13 GMT
Hello faithful!
I've been playing quite a few game with Amon since the beginning of MK3 and I started to notice a trend in my play style. I don't really know how to go as far as my first turn go and when I analyse my games I see that it's what generally break my game. Either I'm too cautious and don't get the alpha, or I'm too reckless, cast mobility and run all the way forward (with generally better results). I almost alway end up playing catch up on attrition.
How do your first turn with Amon? How do you position when yo do your set up? Do you run normally, set up, then cast mobility on the second turn to charge?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 18, 2017 22:17:45 GMT
fit a tarpit unit into your list. They should be relatively durable when charged and difficult to kill in 1 turn. The most important thing to do is keep their point cost down unless you plan on clearing out your opponent's AD with them. This is a strategy that has been called several things ranging from "baiting" to "jamming" to "pulling the turtle's head from his shell." Basically...
The tarpit unit is a sacrificial unit that forces the opponent to engage inside your force's threat range. If they do NOT engage the tarpit unit, run the unit into their ranged forces, while keeping them as spread out as possible. Then push the rest of your forces far enough up the board that you'll be clear to charge the following turn.
Good units to use for tarpitting with Protectorate of Menoth would include: Exemplar Cinerators (once bastions get fixed they'll be a great replacement), Flame Bringers, Temple Flameguard + UA + Pyrrhus, Vigilant (light jack), Avatar of Menoth, The Covenant of Menoth, Allegiant of the Order of the Fist, High Paladin Dartan Vilmon + Paladin of the Order of the Wall. Good qualities for tarpitting is insane armor or defense, girded, spell warding, immunities, 2 inch range, sturdy, steady. Bad qualities would be high expense, low armor or defense, low speed, incorporeal.
The most often used Tarpit units for Menoth would be Cinerators, Temple Flameguard, and Allegiant of the Order of the Fist. Avatar of Menoth is generally skipped because of cost issues, Vigilants because of focus distribution, Paladins because of cost, and the covenant because it's not seen as a sacrificial unit. Flame Bringers are generally too busy with their own thing to be placed in the dead center of the board. I, personally, like the Temple Flameguard combo. However, if you are going up against another skilled opponent who has his own tarpit, you'll want to use Cinerators as a replacement.
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Post by d3z on May 19, 2017 3:29:00 GMT
I can't picture cinerators being a tarpit in an Amon list, since they can't keep up with the jacks that are supposed to be tarpitting for.
If you are going first, absolutely cast mobility and take as much of the board as possible. You won't need to sacrifice too much of your 12 and 14" runs (if anything) to stay out of your opponent's threat. You can safely activate choir first and end their movement 3" in front of the jack line (or 6 if you are in theme) if you desperately need passage or shielding up.
If you are going second, I'd recommend running to just outside charging threat for the opposing melee units, activating choir first if you need passage or shielding up. If your opponent decides to run to engage on the top of 2, it was almost certainly small-based models, so trampling forward is an option if you can't otherwise clear them.
Enliven can let you take some extra inches on your turn 1 run for 1 - 2 of the jacks. It's all about placement, but its trivial to get those jacks further forward in a position where the cost for your opponent to counter enliven is too great to bother.
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Post by Andrivan on May 21, 2017 15:39:25 GMT
Drive deep into the enemy linen with a Dervish or two. Don't weaken your Amon list with infantry. You've got Field Marshal: Parry and fast moving jacks. Use them to push into the enemy lines and threaten the enemy caster. Do that and you'll not need to worry about they moving too far forward. As well, if you are engaging, those jacks don't need choir buffs, so you can save Passage or Shielding for your second wave. Enlivening the vanguard dervishes helps as well with their parry. The list I use is as follows (went undefeated with it at OTC this year, dropping into Khador and Ret. The Devout and Vigilant keep Amon untouchable until you're ready to fire the bullet
Crusader's Might Theme Force Amon Ad Raza -Crusader x4 -Dervish x5 -Devout -Vigilant Covenant of Menoth Mechanik x2 Vassal x2 Wracks x3 Choir (max) Obj: Stockpile
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on May 22, 2017 8:28:49 GMT
Good units to use for tarpitting with Protectorate of Menoth would include: Exemplar Cinerators (once bastions get fixed they'll be a great replacement)....... Good qualities for tarpitting is insane armor or defense, girded, spell warding, immunities, 2 inch range, sturdy, steady. Bad qualities would be high expense, low armor or defense, low speed, incorporeal. Nice contradiction you have there... Hopefully our heavy infantry will get more use in the next steamroller. We have two tarpit units at the moment, Temple Flameguard and Zealots. The rest is either too expensive, too slow, or both. Back on topic for Amon. He does not need a tarpit unit. Only jacks out of theme is a very strong build, in theme is his strongest build. Sometimes you do not get the alpha, which happens because threat 11 or 12 is high, but not that high. Identify if that is going to happen and use your cheap jacks with enliven as bait. Push a few far enough up that your opponent needs to back up and forfeit scenario, or he needs to commit and you enliven away and countercharge. Repeat until your opponent has no more pieces left. You have so many jacks and even the lights at the end of the synergy chain will cripple heavies, two of them will murder even Khador heavies. In theme you start with synergy and fortify in play, so casting mobility will always happen. Out of theme you need a hierophant and/or wracks, but then the same happens, run forward out of charge range or setup the above piece trade. Good luck!
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 22, 2017 16:51:15 GMT
Good units to use for tarpitting with Protectorate of Menoth would include: Exemplar Cinerators (once bastions get fixed they'll be a great replacement)....... Good qualities for tarpitting is insane armor or defense, girded, spell warding, immunities, 2 inch range, sturdy, steady. Bad qualities would be high expense, low armor or defense, low speed, incorporeal. Nice contradiction you have there... Hopefully our heavy infantry will get more use in the next steamroller. We have two tarpit units at the moment, Temple Flameguard and Zealots. The rest is either too expensive, too slow, or both. Back on topic for Amon. He does not need a tarpit unit. Only jacks out of theme is a very strong build, in theme is his strongest build. Sometimes you do not get the alpha, which happens because threat 11 or 12 is high, but not that high. Identify if that is going to happen and use your cheap jacks with enliven as bait. Push a few far enough up that your opponent needs to back up and forfeit scenario, or he needs to commit and you enliven away and countercharge. Repeat until your opponent has no more pieces left. You have so many jacks and even the lights at the end of the synergy chain will cripple heavies, two of them will murder even Khador heavies. In theme you start with synergy and fortify in play, so casting mobility will always happen. Out of theme you need a hierophant and/or wracks, but then the same happens, run forward out of charge range or setup the above piece trade. Good luck! you should read the entire post, tool... pardon the insult. I only placed Cinerators out there because they can generally murder enemy tarpitting strategies. I openly say that the Temple Flameguard + UA and Pyrrhus was my recommendation and cinerators should only be used if you're looking for a tarpit unit that can do a little more than JUST tarpit. If you actually took a look at the list you'll see that I mentioned the Vigilant and the punch monk. However, 2 Vigilants cost 18 pts while a full unit of cinerators costs 16 pts. Cinerators can also run for 10 inches and still have their 17 arm, while temple flameguard need to use their order, limiting their movement speed to 6. Even with mobility, you'll need to use armor 19+ jacks to properly tarpit, which puts them at the same level as a cinerator unit for movement (unless you use vigilants). Dervish's can easily be tossed, destroyed, etc. Paper Mechanics should be left in the warroom, not used on the table.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on May 22, 2017 17:07:13 GMT
If you apologize for an insult but leave the insult there it is not sincere. Please remove it and keep these fora civil. By the way, are you Soulblighter from the original PP fora?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 22, 2017 17:16:51 GMT
once you change your post to something more civil, I'll think about it. As for who I am from the original PP, no. In the original forum, I only posted in the Skorne section. Here I try to help players of all levels advance to the next stages of strategy in both Skorne and Menoth
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 23, 2017 5:29:42 GMT
If you actually took a look at the list you'll see that I mentioned the Vigilant and the punch monk. However, 2 Vigilants cost 18 pts while a full unit of cinerators costs 16 pts. Cinerators can also run for 10 inches and still have their 17 arm, while temple flameguard need to use their order, limiting their movement speed to 6. Even with mobility, you'll need to use armor 19+ jacks to properly tarpit, which puts them at the same level as a cinerator unit for movement (unless you use vigilants). Dervish's can easily be tossed, destroyed, etc. Paper Mechanics should be left in the warroom, not used on the table. Some of your points are ok for general lists, but Amon throws the speed comparison out the window by giving all jacks +2 SPD. And don't forget, you replied to a question about Amon strategy. Those ARM 19+ jacks all run 12" vs the cinerators' 8. Running a fortified indictor or templar (or vigilant if it doesn't need to babysit Amon) for ARM 23 out the front is an effective first line (particularly with enliven and parry), and way faster than cinerators or TFG.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on May 23, 2017 7:49:16 GMT
Pre-theme I have tried with a full unit of Idrians with UA, but even then, the all jack version works better because our jacks are so cheap. The jack theme just enhances this. And so far I see no reason to start including infantry, every jack outruns infantry par daughters, but that is not the best screen in the world.
OP, could you post your list?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 23, 2017 8:11:53 GMT
x.O; I would very much like to play against this strategy of not having a tarpit unit, but just a few jacks instead. I can think of a couple combinations that would make you cry x.O; Xerxis2 Stampede list as well as a Morg2 (or 3) list would all be in love with you having to dedicate so much focus just to leave yourself even more vulnerable. No matter how fast a list may be, if you don't at least have something to fill the voids you're no more difficult to kill than a stationary target.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 23, 2017 9:56:41 GMT
I have played against Amon quite a few times and have never seen him outside of the theme force, and I do not think it would be worth breaking that theme to take any other units.
I am surprised I have not seen Amon with a bunch of Indictors yet. Having a bunch of arm 21 jacks that are immune to spells and non-magic shooting, Spd 6 with pathfinder, blessed, mat 10 ps 22 with Synergy at full, that shut down spells within 5", why would you not play that?
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on May 23, 2017 10:12:51 GMT
I have played against Amon quite a few times and have never seen him outside of the theme force, and I do not think it would be worth breaking that theme to take any other units. I am surprised I have not seen Amon with a bunch of Indictors yet. Having a bunch of arm 21 jacks that are immune to spells and non-magic shooting, Spd 6 with pathfinder, blessed, mat 10 ps 22 with Synergy at full, that shut down spells within 5", why would you not play that? I know right, but it's casting spells within 5" and just the jack can't be targeted by spells (something choir can also do). The problem here is its point cost and I figure 3 crusaders is overall better than 2 indictors. There must be a reason why, after theme release, I can't find an Amon list with a tarpit unit... demonic, could you post sample lists of the 3 casters you mentioned? Discountgames tournament results only has 1 Morghoul2 list, no Morghoul3 and the last Xerxis2 is from 2015... I'm curious what you mean. Also, between upkeeping synergy and fortify, casting mobility, you're down 5 focus. Except for feat turn the jacks are always low on focus. But that doesn't really matter because how powerful synergy is. Too many times on feat turn I've allocated too much focus to a few jacks because I've underestimated synergy damage output.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 23, 2017 10:43:18 GMT
I have played against Amon quite a few times and have never seen him outside of the theme force, and I do not think it would be worth breaking that theme to take any other units. I am surprised I have not seen Amon with a bunch of Indictors yet. Having a bunch of arm 21 jacks that are immune to spells and non-magic shooting, Spd 6 with pathfinder, blessed, mat 10 ps 22 with Synergy at full, that shut down spells within 5", why would you not play that? The mileage of Indictors varies depending on the faction you are playing into. They are probably at their best against Cygnar, and struggle to be worth the 15 points in other matchups. I run 1 as a fortify target out the front, and it's great.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 23, 2017 10:48:03 GMT
I have played against Amon quite a few times and have never seen him outside of the theme force, and I do not think it would be worth breaking that theme to take any other units. I am surprised I have not seen Amon with a bunch of Indictors yet. Having a bunch of arm 21 jacks that are immune to spells and non-magic shooting, Spd 6 with pathfinder, blessed, mat 10 ps 22 with Synergy at full, that shut down spells within 5", why would you not play that? The mileage of Indictors varies depending on the faction you are playing into. They are probably at their best against Cygnar, and struggle to be worth the 15 points in other matchups. I run 1 as a fortify target out the front, and it's great. Yeah that's probably why I think they would be so great, got my Swan tinted goggles on
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