demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 10, 2017 17:52:27 GMT
anyone try it out yet?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 11, 2017 1:09:33 GMT
Nobody denies that fire starter isn't good. The issue is that it just doesn't do much in the current meta. She has no damage buff anymore, in a meta that demands armor cracking. On top of this, frying infantry is less important. If the infantry meta ever comes back, she'll be good again. But till then, she's unoptimized for the meta. With the push to infantry themes, I think this view might be outdated. Trenchers, winter guard, storm div, exemplars, ghost fleet, banes, and more are vulnerable to fire.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jun 11, 2017 10:29:26 GMT
Nobody denies that fire starter isn't good. The issue is that it just doesn't do much in the current meta. She has no damage buff anymore, in a meta that demands armor cracking. On top of this, frying infantry is less important. If the infantry meta ever comes back, she'll be good again. But till then, she's unoptimized for the meta. With the push to infantry themes, I think this view might be outdated. Trenchers, winter guard, storm div, exemplars, ghost fleet, banes, and more are vulnerable to fire. Then why not play Malekus?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 11, 2017 12:05:30 GMT
x.O; then why not try the list *cries*
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jun 11, 2017 12:28:07 GMT
x.O; then why not try the list *cries* Doesn't fit into my WTC composition (no judicator or hand) and my practice time is limited. Sorry man.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 11, 2017 14:38:41 GMT
With the push to infantry themes, I think this view might be outdated. Trenchers, winter guard, storm div, exemplars, ghost fleet, banes, and more are vulnerable to fire. Then why not play Malekus? Well, feat can move the fire to key models, so there's that. Lets pretend, just for a moment, that no trenchers have tough to complicate anything. Malekus' AOES will kill whoever gets scattered to with fire the next turn. That's great, but you're gonna hit 6 trenchers, the sniper, might get the dog (not that we care overmuch), and his direct fire stuff can take the blockhouse that turn if you're close enough. in short, you get some good stuff, but most of what you kill is his garbo models. Given exactly the same list and circumstance, Feora 2 loses the blockhouse, lets half those trenchers live, but nails every solo in the army, every officer in the army, and gets north of 6 focus to sit on at ARM 19, and be generally safe from retribution, especially if guarded by a vigilant. When considering these new themes, we can't afford to forget that they're average models we can take on hepped up by a string of key model that push them over the top. The answers to such things are usually sevvy 2 and feora 2 IMO.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 11, 2017 21:02:21 GMT
Feora2 is also the ONLY caster that can give out firestarter. As a mentioned, firestarter is auto fire on contact, not on critical hit. This means that when the judicator fires off his rockets, it puts out 4, 3 inch aoes of pure fire. In that same turn, he can also use his flamethrowers, taking care of the models closer to him as well. Combined with HoJ, you should be able to take out just about all their infantry and a heavy or 2, maybe a light along with it. Right now I have her combined with the arc node as well, but I've been thinking that going Crusader for that extra punch might be better for the first trading turn. When you include the fact that Feora2 has the escort ability x.x; she really lives up to being the queen of flames.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jun 11, 2017 22:17:12 GMT
Then why not use Cleansers and several Sunburst with whatever caster you like? These are also not inaccurate and have a longer range.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 12, 2017 5:11:30 GMT
ah... actually the judicator wins the range race. 14 + 6 (deviation)+ 6 (additional deviation)
Sunburst is 16 + 6.
Yes, the additional rocket fires off even if the first one hits air. it also deviates from the first's landing point, regardless of where that is.
Cleansers also have the same range as the judicator except on mini-feat turn. considering that the judicator is pumping out 4 sunburst shots and 2 8 inch sprays a turn, I'd say he's worth it. for what I'm trying to use him as.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 12, 2017 5:52:17 GMT
ah... actually the judicator wins the range race. 14 + 6 (deviation)+ 6 (additional deviation) Sunburst is 16 + 6. Yes, the additional rocket fires off even if the first one hits air. it also deviates from the first's landing point, regardless of where that is. Cleansers also have the same range as the judicator except on mini-feat turn. considering that the judicator is pumping out 4 sunburst shots and 2 8 inch sprays a turn, I'd say he's worth it. for what I'm trying to use him as. If you are hitting your target, the sunburst threats further, especially because the second deviation could be 6" back toward the judi as it could 6" away. Secondly, the judicator has the same weapon range as the cleansers, but has 2 shots instead of a maximum of 11 and 2" less total threat (4" with minifeat, 4\6 if you don't have escort up,) because of assault.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 12, 2017 6:50:43 GMT
so basically... the pessimistic version of what I just said... while ignoring that the judi has 60 boxes and 19 armor in comparison to 11 arm and... 12+3+3+3+3= 24 boxes and costs... 19+5+5+5+5=39 points in comparison to the judicators 36... and we haven't even included his 21 P+S fist weapons yet!? -_-; you also forgot that the judicator's points count as jack points, meaning that whatever may be left over from your minimal pick is just a deduction...
I say all of this while actually having a list that pushes both heavy and soft with 2 units of cleansers. Unless you have something to armor them up, the majority of them will be cannon fodder. On the other hand, a judi can sit just behind your front line and clean house in both long distance and melee combat. The linch-pin of this set up is firestarter, which limits you to Feora2. If I was going to use any other caster I'd probably be placing judi on the backburner, 4, 3 inch 2d7s and 2 8-inch spray templates are just not enough for me to invest that many points. Unless I can clear the board, I'll always pick something like 3 crusaders and 6 pts of solos instead.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jun 12, 2017 11:35:13 GMT
Okay first things first, you made me a little bit excited about Feora2 again (the promise of more balanced lists), so thank you for that. But I do think your original list is a bit flawed, as others and myself have already pointed out.
A breakdown: The Revenger is a bit iffy as she only has focus 6, so needing to boost attack and maybe damage to get use out of convection is highly situational. Hand of Judgement is good and even better with Feora2, keep it. The Judicator was decent with her, but a bit less so due to armour spam at the moment. It might get better with more infantry. The biggest flaw is that it's only one jack, yes it hits hard and can shoot, but it will crush only 1 or 2 jacks a turn if you're lucky. The guns can't het the broadside of a barn and eat up your clock. If you are using the flamethrowers you are not punching anything and at that range are probably in other kinds of trouble. Nicia is always cool. Pyrrhus and TFG is a good combination, I don't think that the UA is worth it's points so that might be changed around for other stuff. Ambushing Daughters are cool and the main reason to pick the theme. Repair and focus support is always good.
If you want to continue with Feora2 and the fire theme might I suggest the following:
Protectorate Army - 74 / 75 points (Feora 2) Feora, Protector of the Flame [+28] - Crusader [10] - Hand of Judgment [18] - Redeemer [11] - Sanctifier [14] - Hierophant [3] Deliverer Arms Master [3] Pyrrhus, Flameguard Hero [5] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Deliverer Sunburst Crew [5] Deliverer Sunburst Crew [5] Flameguard Cleansers (min) [9] - Flameguard Cleanser Officer [4] Temple Flameguard (max) [11]
The Redeemer and Sunburst for ranged auto fire. The first is the target for your firestarter and the other 2 are larger aoe's, higher damage, but unboostable. RAT 8 when aiming! This also allows you to keep Feora back while still gaining the +3 ARM. Arcing fire is now also an option. Cleansers with UA threat 18" and sprays ignore a lot of defensive bonusses. As I said, TFG with Pyrrhus is good, putting a Sanctifier in there is even better, especially for a Focus6 caster. Crusader is your POW 20 beatstick here. Hierophant and the last point could be swapped for 2 Wracks and 2 Mechaniks for example, whatever you feel is needed.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 27, 2017 8:11:02 GMT
alright, a slightly altered the original list for this while keeping the same idea; feora2 puts firestarter on the judicator and ignites everything on fire x.O; Because of the alteration to guardians of the temple, it gave it quite a boost. I'm now able to play Feora2 rather far in without worry. This is due to the fact that I can now bring Madelyn Corbeau. Since I have her constantly pulling her parlay stunt, I could switch out the Revenger with a Vigilant, and now Feora2 is a def 15 arm 19 (escort gives +2) that cannot be targeted by enemies while within 7 inches of Madelyn; Feora2 also gets a constant cover and girded from the Vigilant. To make up for the rest of the points, I removed the vassal but that was it. Everything is the same as the old list. It comes out like this- Theme: Guardians of the Temple 75/75 pts Feora2 -Madelyn Corbeau, Ordic Courtesan -Judicator -Hand of Judgement -Vigilant Nicia, Tear of Vengeance Pyrrhus, Flameguard Hero Vassal Mechanik Vassal Mechanik Choir of Menoth (min) Temple Flameguard (max) -Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard Daughters of the Flame (ambush) In the two games I played with the list, both times I played extremely wrecklessly with Feora2, as far as how far forward I placed her. Both times I lossed due to scenario -.- First game, I accidentally put my TFG behind rough terrain and they couldn't get in the game until the start of my 3rd turn. When you are playing against Skorne's Crazy Cat Lady list, being slow is fatal. He shut me out of the two side zones and scored 3 pts before I could even get them in. My first turn decisions were also horrible, moving Feora2 too far forward for the Judicator to keep LoS blocked. I also completely forgot to deploy the daughters and kept forgetting to activate the choir before my jacks, which would have lead to a lot more dead kitties. What i learned is that fire can eat through even 17 armor as random rocket pods were igniting cats left and right, the fire rolls afterwards taking anywhere from 2-4 boxes, making them easy to take down later in the game. He won by killing my objective. If I had not made so many mistakes, I probably could have taken out Mak1 in my last turn. Second game, my deployment wasn't as much of an issue as the only thing I wish I took back from it was I should have moved my entire army over to one side a few inches in order to ensure a 2 zone cap. It was against a cygnar with stryker. This one, the judicator's rocket pods took out an entire unit of trenchers and his sniper. (even if you are immune to a specific type of damage does not mean you aren't hit by it) HoJ also did a good job with his flame thrower and auto boosted attack rolls. Thanks to him sacrificing an entire unit in order to kill Madelyn, he was actually able to deal damage to Feora2, but instantly gave up when he saw that he would be sitting on 3 pts with all zones contested and my objective in hand. I was almost able to turn the tides by clearing 1 zone and contesting all but 1. Pyrrhus and a few TFG were suppose to contest the last one, but the HoJ wiffed his last attack on Rowdy, leaving him on 1 god damn box and blocking my lane to contest. He killed the objective and brought his caster into the freed up zone for the win. All in all, the list is actually quite solid. It can kill both infantry and cavalry, plus has enough punching power to take out annoying character jacks. It would not do well into full armor skews of 19+ and probably its biggest flaw would be scenario. Although it's great at holding, it only has 2 actual units, making it highly difficult to cap off points in those zone types. It's great at holding what you have, but the more places you can score on the scenario, the weaker the list becomes. I still want to play it a few more times, especially into a cryx list or a serious infantry spam. Once I get down how to deploy it properly, I'll also put it up on the win/loss ratios, but I really do feel like I played way too much like an amateur in those games, which doesn't do the caster justice. PS: I was suffering irritable bowel the entire time so I couldn't keep focus at all. Cramps, gas, and breaks for the bathroom all day x.x but it's my one day a week not going to skip out for something that simple.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Oct 27, 2017 10:48:08 GMT
Ok, this has really piqued my interest.
There's two issues that I feel I would outline in your original lists.
Lack of unit presence Lack of speed
With those in mind, I've identifed what you want to be the key elements of your list: Feora2 Judicator (for continuous fire) Hand of Judgement (as personal jack and fire booster)
So, in keeping with those key elements, we need to identify the challenges the list (as it was) would struggle with.
Contesting, scenario pressure Supporting Feora
I've written the below list to try to answer these issues. I think I've managed to squeeze out as many free points as possible.
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - F2
Theme: Guardians of the Temple 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Feora, Protector of the Flame - WJ: +28 - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 - Judicator - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28)
Pyrrhus, Flameguard Hero - PC: 0 Nicia, Tear of Vengeance - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Temple Flameguard - Leader & 9 Grunts: 11 - Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Flame Bringers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Daughters of the Flame - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
THEME: Guardians of the Temple ---
GENERATED : 10/27/2017 11:04:40 BUILD ID : 2052.17-10-13
Removal from the list;
Revenger - cannot fit any more than Hand and Judicator to make Guardians work. Vassal - so few jacks that even Feora doesn't have an excuse to be out of range. The wracks replace the focus drain.
Added to the list: Flame bringers - incredibly mobile and generally can look after themselves. In any scenario with a long range zone (Spread the Net, Stand off) they are in their element contesting and providing a huge threat range. They can also score very handily.
Wracks - because focus
The addition of flame bringers should drag the list out of the gutter just based on speed alone. Throw them screaming up one flank, with a plan to ambush the daughters wherever the opponent puts the majority of his squishy pieces. Both of these elements will allow you to begin taking control very early in the game, as fast cavalry with ambushers will generally force your opponent to centralise his forces, or overweight it to one side. When your opponent is acting in a reactive way, you will be more in control of the game, and it opens him up to making forced errors (errors caused by your good play, rather than him making mistakes on his own). Being in control of the game, and asking questions, is one of the elements that most EFeora lists lack, in my opinion.
You also have to be aware not to lose momentum by losing key pieces unnecessarily (wracks blowing early, too many flamebringers lost unnecessarily, Nicia and Pyrrhus being killed off when they could be holding flags or contesting).
Let me know what you think.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 28, 2017 2:28:33 GMT
bringers, huh? I think it'll work pretty well. I was thinking of using cleansers to clean out zones to score points. Since they are fire immune I can use them as targets for the flame sprays of the HoJ and Feora2. I also wouldn't have to worry about them when a severe deviation occurs off the rocket pods as those become fire based as well. I've actually thought about bringers too, specifically for the speed of engagement. However, their power is lacking. I feel like if I don't bring something that can really rip things apart aside from the judi and the HoJ that I'll get pushed to the brink from any sort of alpha. I do think that the bringers would be frigg'n great for contesting enemy zones that are way in the back. Keeping them from getting the "auto score" areas gives you a great advantage in that aspect. Since their numbers are small it also upgrades their ability to score points.
I'd like to find a way to at least keep Madelyn in the list. I think I can keep Feora2 close enough to the judicator to keep the +2 arm from escort going, but I'd rather limit the enemy's options at taking a swing at her. Just Madelyn was enough to practically null assassination attempts from Mak1's Crazy cat lady list, as jumps are a placement effect, thus you need to select a target for your attack while inside the 7 inch zone of parlay. If she's close enough to the judicator, it'll make her difficult to swarm and almost impossible to kill her in 1 round without sending in the most ferocious jacks you got, making you really feel the hurt on any failed attempts. I also need mechaniks more than wracks for SURE. Feora2 only uses a lot of focus on her feat turn and her first turn, the rest of the time she's generally sitting on something like 3-4 unused focus. HoJ's flame thrower has auto boosted attack rolls under her (probably the best bond in the game), and the Judicator's rocket pods and flame throwers are more for igniting things on fire than actually being the final blow. However, losing either HoJ or the Judicator is practically fatal.
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