crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 12, 2017 2:40:24 GMT
edit: I forgot about the +2 to hit; it's actually over 50-50
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 12, 2017 2:45:07 GMT
Well, if you believed that the best armor should always beat the best armor cracking, you'd be wrong. Armor skew is a list type, armor cracking is a list focus. A list that excels in armor cracking almost always has other weaknesses, particularly if it is literally 'the best.' All things as defined and insisted upon by you which is why I have no things to argue with you. Outside of those annoying physics arguments (Yes yes everything is energy piss off) it's arguing the immovable objects Vs Unstoppable force thing where you say force should win because it always has flaws because you said so with no evidence or examples to back it up. You also ignore there are different kinds of Armor, and Different kinds of Cracking. Is a Conquest under Malakov 1 inside Butcher 1s Feat, with Dark shroud and Kiss of Lilith applied to the target the best Objective armor cracking because its the biggest number (29 Damage Rolling 3D6) or is it reliability, or ability to ignore buffs, or being able to spread out, or being able to lay it on consistently ext.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 12, 2017 2:46:29 GMT
Actually, it's the other way around -- Baldur's feat shuts down Pathfinder, leaving a melee Harkevich list just kind of sitting there on feat turn doing nothing. And I just mathed it; a unit of bloodtrackers with Prey and Stone Skin have about a 50-50 chance of one-rounding a Khador heavy with their javelins on non-feat turn. No, you're right, I'm wrong. And a 50-50 chance of 1-rounding a Marauder, which costs less than the unit, and leaves them in retaliation range of the rest of the army is...not great, in terms of being the best anti-marauder tech baldur can muster. First, if that Marauder isn't dead, it's not happy. Second, on Baldur's feat turn because their threat range goes down to 4.5" (well, 5.5" if Hark wants to spend half his stack to cast Mobility. Third, trying to play whack-a-mole with single-wound infantry that has decent DEF is not a good use of warjacks.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 12, 2017 2:49:32 GMT
You also ignore there are different kinds of Armor, and Different kinds of Cracking. Is a Conquest under Malakov 1 inside Butcher 1s Feat, with Dark shroud and Kiss of Lilith applied to the target the best Objective armor cracking because its the biggest number (29 Damage Rolling 3D6) (Off topic) I would think Sorscha2's feat would be a bigger damage number than Butcher1's?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 12, 2017 2:54:53 GMT
(Off topic) I would think Sorscha2's feat would be a bigger damage number than Butcher1's? Proving my point exactly. Is it Armor cracking that makes better things better? Or armor cracking that makes meh things good? Is it just bypassing a Armor Score or doing lots of boxes of damage?
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Post by macdaddy on May 12, 2017 13:01:02 GMT
Sure trackers can kill a heavy with prey and stone skin...what opponent is putting their preyed heavy (remember there is 9 or 10 heavies on the board) in the threat range (only 13" under stone skin" rather than just putting other non preyed heavies in front of it and saving it for the attrition piece. No half decent opponent is going to let you walk a unit of bloodtrackers up the middle of board (baldurs control is only 12" so flanks make them vulnerable to retaliation) and then get the ENTIRE unit in range to murder it with spears. Once again IF your opponent LETS you get that off and then somehow you get it off twice thanks to the feat your opponent is now at 8-7 heavies... wooo? A Stalker with Primal and Stone skin AND a free charge MIGHT kill 2 khador heavies but you lose it for a turn (giving your opponent 2 turns to remove it) which is normally just long enough to kill it. Megalith kills 1 or so khador heavies (normally needing stone skin to finish it off) and then lets say you brought a feral. Now remember Harkevitches ENTIRE battle group out threats megs and the feral (save the stalker) because of mobility (pathfinder really is relevant when determining threat range) Theres a lot that has to go just right. A good Khador player will not allow you to get more than 2 or 3 heavies in an alpha and stone skin reduces threat range but is needed to make sure you finish the jacks. Also, bloodtrackers are 16 points so its not an even trade at all unless I for sure kill 2.
Its not a trading game that goes well and after the feat turn harkevitches army just kind of rumbles on through. Its the better match up in circle (I'm still having the most success with mohsar) But its always and uphill struggle and in SR2017 normally ends with a janky assassination run on Harky or just a slow grind of you cant catch me with Karachev. (Sr 2016 I would pull out janky scenario wins) But thats the thing, Its janky, the match up (even with a list tailored to jack and beast spam) is still and uphill battle im still the underdog in the khador match up just because of 10 heavies across from me. Im fien with admitting there are tools to deal with heavies but dont try to tell em I can do it efficiently.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 12, 2017 13:25:24 GMT
[...] but KHADORAN Jack spam gets all the hate. Typical. It's a instinctual thing. Seeing the color red literally increases aggression. Khador is covered in it. red jacks, red clothes, red flags, red cards. They're practically asking for it I still say power up is fine. Jack spam is hard to compete with but the game's not done. Releases are still on the way. theme forces are to be filled out. At the end of the day, even if I don't like the playstyle a ton, I'm still pretty dam good at assassination-with-flags.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 12, 2017 13:35:08 GMT
What's worse is that one of the best jack control spells is in Circle; Strangle hold. But because you're going against all jacks it's near impossible to use it. It's so freaking sad.
Circle needs FA3 Loki. It wouldn't be impossible for the trickster god to be in 3 places at once. Ok, non-character versions of him maybe. They just need more drag/engagement options. Cryx has Reapers and Malice. CoC the Prime Axium. Mercs have a few. Legion has hellmouths and Proteus. Trolls would benefit from something too, but they're not so much hit-and-run so maybe just a threat extender solo.
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Post by Azuresun on May 12, 2017 22:39:43 GMT
No, you're right, I'm wrong. And a 50-50 chance of 1-rounding a Marauder, which costs less than the unit, and leaves them in retaliation range of the rest of the army is...not great, in terms of being the best anti-marauder tech baldur can muster. First, if that Marauder isn't dead, it's not happy. Second, on Baldur's feat turn because their threat range goes down to 4.5" (well, 5.5" if Hark wants to spend half his stack to cast Mobility. Wait, Harkevich has spells other than Mobility?
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Post by BarbeChenue on May 14, 2017 19:42:33 GMT
Jack heavy lists are an inherent feature of Mk3. They are giving each faction a warbeast/warjack centric theme list to incentivise just that. And as you said, they also gave many factions warcasters/warlocks that synergize with 'jack/'beast heavy lists.
If the problem is that certain warjacks are too much of a bargain and lead to 340 boxes of ARM 30 (such as 100pts of Marauder) than change the Marauder. Also, if he's changed, his role should be made more tailored to a purpose, in addition to his point cost increasing. We don't want another batch of Mad Dogs and Berserkers killed by an errata while we could have had a changed, but still relevant, role for them.
I don't see 'jack lists dominating the tournament meta anywhere. If casual players are not able to deal with some lists, maybe they should modify their armies instead of suggesting to utterly destroy an interesting way to play the game?
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Post by jest on May 15, 2017 19:31:54 GMT
I don't see 'jack lists dominating the tournament meta anywhere. If casual players are not able to deal with some lists, maybe they should modify their armies instead of suggesting to utterly destroy an interesting way to play the game? This is exactly why i don't think jack spam is the problem - the data doesn't support it. Either powerup is powerful regardless of jack spam, or power up isn't the reason why Hordes is under-performing a bit.
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Post by BarbeChenue on May 15, 2017 20:11:26 GMT
In Starcraft 2, at the non-pro/casual level of play, some units cannot have their stats adjusted too much for professional play because of the risk they pose for casual play. It's a challenge to balance a game between different "metas". Marauders are not a problem in tournaments, and Harkevitch has been seen in the finalists since last fall. If PP wants to "fix" Khador 'jacks, they need to address it in a way that lets them stay competitive at the tournament tables but be less of a "pubstomping" for more casual circles.
I think Marauders could be made slightly more expensive, and receive a slight boost. This wouldn't increase the number of life boxes they have, and thus the difficulty to kill a bunch of them when spammed, and it would make them still relevant for competitive lists.
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Post by macdaddy on May 15, 2017 21:59:21 GMT
In Starcraft 2, at the non-pro/casual level of play, some units cannot have their stats adjusted too much for professional play because of the risk they pose for casual play. It's a challenge to balance a game between different "metas". Marauders are not a problem in tournaments, and Harkevitch has been seen in the finalists since last fall. If PP wants to "fix" Khador 'jacks, they need to address it in a way that lets them stay competitive at the tournament tables but be less of a "pubstomping" for more casual circles. I think Marauders could be made slightly more expensive, and receive a slight boost. This wouldn't increase the number of life boxes they have, and thus the difficulty to kill a bunch of them when spammed, and it would make them still relevant for competitive lists. While I can understand the difference between casual and the upper level competitive I think being able to balance the game form both perspectives is especially key. If marauders became Mat 7 but went up to 12 or so points I could see them being taken more as a dedicated colossal cracker. While not overlapping too much with Juggies. I think part of the reason Harky and khador doesn't preform at the top level is their predictability. I can honestly say now that when I see a list of all jacks across the table regardless of caster I can pretty much know exactly what the kahdor player will do every time based on terrain and scenario. Same thing applies to rocket spam and such. The faction really only plays one way. I think at the top level very experienced players who have their dedicated anti jack beast spam lists take advantage of the limited flexibility of the khador army. (this is based off of personal experience I am not a high tier competitive player i primarily play at local events of anywhere from 10-20 or so folks.) If anyone who does compete at the higher level can correct me please do!
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 15, 2017 22:17:15 GMT
In Starcraft 2, at the non-pro/casual level of play, some units cannot have their stats adjusted too much for professional play because of the risk they pose for casual play. It's a challenge to balance a game between different "metas". Marauders are not a problem in tournaments, and Harkevitch has been seen in the finalists since last fall. If PP wants to "fix" Khador 'jacks, they need to address it in a way that lets them stay competitive at the tournament tables but be less of a "pubstomping" for more casual circles. I think Marauders could be made slightly more expensive, and receive a slight boost. This wouldn't increase the number of life boxes they have, and thus the difficulty to kill a bunch of them when spammed, and it would make them still relevant for competitive lists. While I can understand the difference between casual and the upper level competitive I think being able to balance the game form both perspectives is especially key. If marauders became Mat 7 but went up to 12 or so points I could see them being taken more as a dedicated colossal cracker. While not overlapping too much with Juggies. I think part of the reason Harky and khador doesn't preform at the top level is their predictability. I can honestly say now that when I see a list of all jacks across the table regardless of caster I can pretty much know exactly what the kahdor player will do every time based on terrain and scenario. Same thing applies to rocket spam and such. The faction really only plays one way. I think at the top level very experienced players who have their dedicated anti jack beast spam lists take advantage of the limited flexibility of the khador army. (this is based off of personal experience I am not a high tier competitive player i primarily play at local events of anywhere from 10-20 or so folks.) If anyone who does compete at the higher level can correct me please do! I like the idea, but why would a dedicated colossal cracker need high mat? How about increase cost to 12 and give it +2 movement when chargin towards colossals and gargs?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 16, 2017 1:06:59 GMT
Just a reminder tge maurader is already mat 7, and at 12 points and just siege weapon it competes with tge jugger.
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