spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 6, 2017 19:09:23 GMT
There's no reason we can't discuss possible solutions though.
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Post by greytemplar on May 6, 2017 19:14:36 GMT
Make power up limited to a number of war jacks equal to your focus stat. This would fix all the casters who are/were abusing power up(they're all focus 5-6). High focus casters tend to be lighter on the jacks.
Also give jack marshals power up. So jack marshal jacks have a focus in addition to their marshal abilities.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 6, 2017 19:23:19 GMT
Make power up limited to a number of war jacks equal to your focus stat. This would fix all the casters who are/were abusing power up(they're all focus 5-6). High focus casters tend to be lighter on the jacks. Also give jack marshals power up. So jack marshal jacks have a focus in addition to their marshal abilities. Honestly, I'd be fine with that. More than that and It begins to feel abusive. Even Jack Casters like Kharchev need too nut up and either take a better variety of Jacks, or spend their points on Some supporting infantry.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 6, 2017 19:28:02 GMT
Make power up limited to a number of war jacks equal to your focus stat. This would fix all the casters who are/were abusing power up(they're all focus 5-6). High focus casters tend to be lighter on the jacks. Also give jack marshals power up. So jack marshal jacks have a focus in addition to their marshal abilities. I prefer my solution (letting marshalled jacks come out of warjack points.) The issue is that once you've spent 28 ish points on jacks, it's often hard to justify another 20 point jack module unless you're already running jack heavy, and the casters that tend to run jack heavy ALSO tend to have good battlegroup buffs which make them want not to take jack marshalls. For instance, Helynna runs jack heavy, but Rhythm of War and Hand of Destruction are usually too good to miss out on. I think if you could take (even just 1) marshalled jack out of your jack points, you'd see them quite a bit more. The issue with power up is a whole seperate thing, and ties into the relative power levels of hordes vs. warmachine. I find it...interesting...that not only do warmachine get jack marshals (while hordes really has no equivalent,) Warmachine journeymen are almost universally better than Hordes journeymen due to the way fury works (my squishy solo has to stay within 8" of their (usually melee) beasts to get work done? Yeah, no) and the existence of power up. I'd like to see a revisiting of the hordes lesser warlocks at some point, far more than I want to see MORE buffs for warmachine. EDIT: also, your two suggestions are at cross-purposes. You want to limit power-up to the controlling warcaster's focus stat, but also less marshalled jacks (no controlling warcaster) power up? Doesn't work mechanically, and also defeats the whole point of limiting power up. Honestly, limiting power up to the warcaster's focus stat would probably just mean we see more journeymen.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 6, 2017 19:30:29 GMT
The issue with power up is a whole seperate thing, and ties into the relative power levels of hordes vs. warmachine. I find it...interesting...that not only do warmachine get jack marshals (while hordes really has no equivalent,) Warmachine journeymen are almost universally better than Hordes journeymen due to the way fury works (my squishy solo has to stay within 8" of their (usually melee) beasts to get work done? Yeah, no) and the existence of power up. I'd like to see a revisiting of the hordes lesser warlocks at some point, far more than I want to see MORE buffs for warmachine. People who complain about Jack marshals are often those that never Played warmachine. Individual Models can suck, but the core mechanics behind Hordes are superior to those of Warmachine.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 6, 2017 19:38:42 GMT
The issue with power up is a whole seperate thing, and ties into the relative power levels of hordes vs. warmachine. I find it...interesting...that not only do warmachine get jack marshals (while hordes really has no equivalent,) Warmachine journeymen are almost universally better than Hordes journeymen due to the way fury works (my squishy solo has to stay within 8" of their (usually melee) beasts to get work done? Yeah, no) and the existence of power up. I'd like to see a revisiting of the hordes lesser warlocks at some point, far more than I want to see MORE buffs for warmachine. People who complain about Jack marshals are often those that never Played warmachine. Individual Models can suck, but the core mechanics behind Hordes are superior to those of Warmachine. I play Warmachine. I play Hordes. we've had this argument several times, and I've yet to see you give a truly compelling reason why Hordes' mechanics are better than Warmachine's. Also, I was not complaining about Jack Marshals. I was remarking that Hordes has no similar options, while Warmachine is literally spoiled for options. People don't take Jack Marshals in large part because power up (and battlegroup buffs) are THAT GOOD. If they need to ease the focus drain on their caster, most factions have a very usable journeyman (or two, in the case of Cygnar.) Hordes has none of these options. I would love to have a hordes-equivalent jack marshal, or even just a decent journeyman. Una having to stay within 8" of her much faster, melee oriented griffons is complete balls.
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Post by greytemplar on May 6, 2017 19:47:43 GMT
For sure. The increased % of lists being spent on battle group jacks has really hurt jack marshals even when on paper they got better.
One more reason I'd be a fan of making 100 points the new tournament standard.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 6, 2017 19:51:05 GMT
I play Warmachine. I play Hordes. we've had this argument several times, and I've yet to see you give a truly compelling reason why Hordes' mechanics are better than Warmachine's. Alright, I apologize for resorting to an ad hominem fallacy. So what would your version be? A Beast Handler that allows the beast to spend 2 fury with some ability? And Just a note: You would have to stay in ITS area as well in order to benefit from Jack Drives. As for why its because the rule originates from when Warmachine didn't have as much focus to throw around. Also I dropped the conversation before because I flat out disagreed with your opinion, and believed that we were at a standstill when either you or somebody else argued that a Juggernaught in hordes would be fair and balanced. That point in time it was like telling me that the Sky is Purple. Maybe it is and im missing something, but from all information known, it isn't.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 6, 2017 22:23:32 GMT
I play Warmachine. I play Hordes. we've had this argument several times, and I've yet to see you give a truly compelling reason why Hordes' mechanics are better than Warmachine's. Alright, I apologize for resorting to an ad hominem fallacy. So what would your version be? A Beast Handler that allows the beast to spend 2 fury with some ability? And Just a note: You would have to stay in ITS area as well in order to benefit from Jack Drives. As for why its because the rule originates from when Warmachine didn't have as much focus to throw around. Also I dropped the conversation before because I flat out disagreed with your opinion, and believed that we were at a standstill when either you or somebody else argued that a Juggernaught in hordes would be fair and balanced. That point in time it was like telling me that the Sky is Purple. Maybe it is and im missing something, but from all information known, it isn't. To be honest, you could PROBABLY port over the jack marshall rule to hordes wholesale - it'd still be weaker, because there's no analogue to empower in Hordes, but I'd use a marshalled shooting beast in some circumstances. I understand WHY. The fact that it exists though (on top of the numerous other advantages WM factions have over Hordes factions) is indicative of the gap between WM and Hordes - if Hordes had a comparable rule, with comparable access to empower, it would ABSOLUTELY be used. Yet most WM factions completely ignore it, because they have better options. I did not say that the Juggernaut would be 'fine' in Hordes - I said that I wasn't certain that it would be a massively broken piece if it was ported over almost untouched - fury 3, 1 high pow attack, no animus. It might be undercosted at 12 points, but I feel that the Juggernaut is ALREADY undercosted in Khador (the reason it's not spammed right now is because the Marauder is better/cheaper.) Transferring it to the Fury ruleset doesn't magically make it more OP. At the very least, it would not be spammable, because the way fury works makes it untenable to run more than 6 or 7 beasts on a warlock (and as I mentioned, the juniors are crap.) And honestly, as it stands WM SHOULD have worse jacks than Hordes has beasts, because WM has so many advantages over Hordes - most notably, they get infantry that can kill heavies, while hardly ANY hordes infantry can do that role. If Hordes has to rely on it's beasts to do the heavy lifting, they damn well had better be able to the work they need to do.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 6, 2017 23:16:26 GMT
Alright, I apologize for resorting to an ad hominem fallacy. So what would your version be? A Beast Handler that allows the beast to spend 2 fury with some ability? And Just a note: You would have to stay in ITS area as well in order to benefit from Jack Drives. As for why its because the rule originates from when Warmachine didn't have as much focus to throw around. Also I dropped the conversation before because I flat out disagreed with your opinion, and believed that we were at a standstill when either you or somebody else argued that a Juggernaught in hordes would be fair and balanced. That point in time it was like telling me that the Sky is Purple. Maybe it is and im missing something, but from all information known, it isn't. To be honest, you could PROBABLY port over the jack marshall rule to hordes wholesale - it'd still be weaker, because there's no analogue to empower in Hordes, but I'd use a marshalled shooting beast in some circumstances. I understand WHY. The fact that it exists though (on top of the numerous other advantages WM factions have over Hordes factions) is indicative of the gap between WM and Hordes - if Hordes had a comparable rule, with comparable access to empower, it would ABSOLUTELY be used. Yet most WM factions completely ignore it, because they have better options. I did not say that the Juggernaut would be 'fine' in Hordes - I said that I wasn't certain that it would be a massively broken piece if it was ported over almost untouched - fury 3, 1 high pow attack, no animus. It might be undercosted at 12 points, but I feel that the Juggernaut is ALREADY undercosted in Khador (the reason it's not spammed right now is because the Marauder is better/cheaper.) Transferring it to the Fury ruleset doesn't magically make it more OP. At the very least, it would not be spammable, because the way fury works makes it untenable to run more than 6 or 7 beasts on a warlock (and as I mentioned, the juniors are crap.) And honestly, as it stands WM SHOULD have worse jacks than Hordes has beasts, because WM has so many advantages over Hordes - most notably, they get infantry that can kill heavies, while hardly ANY hordes infantry can do that role. If Hordes has to rely on it's beasts to do the heavy lifting, they damn well had better be able to the work they need to do. Honestly I think you are just completly and deeply wrong. But everybody is entitled to your own opinion.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 7, 2017 3:45:48 GMT
I'd be a fan of just removing the Jack Marshal rule from the game. It adds very little, especially now that Junior Warcasters/Warlocks are in pretty much every faction.
Why limit or change a good rule in order to fix a bad one? Jack Marshals add clutter and are rarely a good choice. The time when Jack Marshals are the correct choice is nearly always when you can give the jack focus as well.
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Post by tiberius on May 7, 2017 10:46:58 GMT
It seems to me that some hordes factions already have something equivalent to jack marshals, at least in ability, like the Skorne have those guys that can either give strength or free charges. Or guys that allow the beast to force outside of the warlocks control area. Granted, they do not have the beast under their control completely, as it belongs to the warlock or journeyman warlock, but maybe that is an argument for a better jack marshal as well. Support solos or units, that cost equivalent to a jack marshall and bring similar abilities, fill the same slot in my mind.
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Post by macdaddy on May 7, 2017 16:15:17 GMT
I would actually be ok if marshals gave out 2 benefits. It would give Bastions and reclaimers purpose. I do think part of the issue is power up being way to efficient. But another problem is the price of jack marshal packages. In protectorate (my warnachine faction.) Taking a jack marshal with any half decent jack is going to be 14+ points for a jack that doesn't benefit from BG abilities and has incredibly limited focus allocation potential.
I just can't find a reason to take it. I have better options like the avatar for an independent jack or Tristan and Vassals if I want free jack support solos. Every tome I want to take the bastion senny I look at the points cost compared to output and it's just not enough
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