|
Post by gargs454 on May 2, 2017 21:27:11 GMT
I dunno, I mean I'm pretty sure that the people of Cygnar and Lael and likely even Khador don't exactly feel great and comfortable right now. Sure, you can say that Morrow and Thamar are not directly causing said suffering (and I would argue the same holds for Menoth) but they certainly are not doing anything about it either. In the end, what really is the difference between been the indirect cause of said suffering and merely not doing anything about it even though you have the power to stop it? Again I will point out that when religion comes to play, this is pretty darn standard fare. The story of the Iron Kingdoms, and thus the games, is a story about the people of the Iron Kingdoms, not the gods. This is what usually happens across all settings. Heck, even the Forgotten Realms, which has among the most "active" gods around, still usually has stories about the heroes, not the gods, saving the day. Some of those gods even have worshipers who take . . . interesting interpretations of their gods "law" and use it for less than upstanding purposes. So I guess my question for you is (and I don't mean this negatively, just honestly): Do you want a story about the people and their heroes, or do you want a story about the gods? It sounds like your biggest gripe about Menoth is that he doesn't step in and save the day enough (a fair point). But, again, if Menoth were always able to step in and save the day, then the world doesn't really need heroes.
|
|
|
Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 2, 2017 21:36:07 GMT
I'm trying to remember.... have I had this argument here on these boards before? And was it with you Rowdy?
Your premise is why didn't Menoth intervene during the Orgoth enslavement? I wish I could give you more details but my Kings, Nations, and Gods (and other IKRPG books) aren't with me right now. But the question can be asked: did he have to?
In-universe: The Orgoth occupation, while enslaving the Iron Kingdoms, also brought them together under a common banner and a common deity (if I recall correctly Morrow and Thamar did not go through apothesis yet at that time) and allowed them to develop new technologies and advance civilization.
Out-of-universe: The writers needed a conflict that would be solved by the people they would write and create stories about; too much divine interference will serve as a deus ex machina of a literal sort and derail that.
One has to understand the the Protectorate's interpretation of Canon puts them firmly in the Lawful evil category, with some dips into LN and LG territory. Yes, some of the Menite higher-ups are will not hesitate to burn civilians of a sort, but that's how the faction is written. Everything you've mentioned is based on the fact that the Protectorate is a theocratic state first and foremost. The religion is law and religious punishments (usually cruel and unjust) are the norm. It's a shitty place to live if you're not a devout Sul-Menite or rich.
But also don't forget the merciful: You have Tristan, Kreoss, Durst, the Harbinger, every single Paladin of the Wall. Even Severius himself, while a Scrutator and Head Honcho was written more as a tired old man in Godless. All the warcasters seem to be written to reflect a certain aspect of the faith, so of course some will be embodiments of wrath and the fire and some will be Menoth's law and mercy.
The Harbinger.... now that's a complicated answer purely because we have no clue what her motivations or thoughts are. All her fluff shows that she does care about the suffering she brings, but she deals because she believes that it is necessary. Plus her last fluff piece shows her resurrecting an entire battlefield- friendly and enemy (who promptly convert).
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on May 2, 2017 21:40:46 GMT
There are a few reasons Menoth has only recently begun to directly influence Caen. The main one being that its only been in the last few hundred years that civilized humans have begun to seriously leave Menoth's teachings. Thus disrupting Menoth's supply of souls, which in some form or another aid in his battle with the Wyrm. Even when the worship of the Twins became commonplace, it took a while for them, morrowans specifically, to become the majority, as well as actively try and stamp out Menite communities.
This has drawn Menoth's gaze back to Caen once more, whereas before he was more passive. He gave power to the priests, but more or less left them to follow his teachings. Now that his teachings have been supplanted enough to be a danger, he needs to once again take charge. Hence why he has sent the Harbinger, taken some more direct actions like choosing the next Hierarch, and having an Avatar. These things are what has contributed to Menites for once having an explicit and, mostly, unified force. In the past, most people were Menites but they belonged to multiple kingdoms and warred with each other when there wasn't an external threat.
Prior to the Orgoth, all of the kingdoms were pretty heavy Menite majorities. During the Orgoth's domination, the people began to turn to alternatives like Morrow and Thamar because the Menite priests were powerless to help them in their current plight, though its worth noting that Caspia/Sul was the only city that was never conquered by the Orgoth, the place where the main Menite(and Morrowan) temples were located.
It also bears remembering that Menoth already stepped in once to alleviate humanities suffering. After creating them, and leaving them alone for a few thousand years, he was a little angry they had forgotten who he was. But he saw that humans had to live in wretched conditions, little better than beasts, as part of simple tribes of hunter gatherers. So he took pity and gave humanity the Gifts. Fire, Law, Agriculture, and Masonry. Basically civilization. And as long as humans gave him proper respect and followed his laws, they would be fine. Maybe not comfortable. Menoth doesn't exist to save you from marauding enemies, he gave you walls and the ability to create tools to defend yourself. The Orgoth didn't prevent their slaves from worshipping whoever they wanted, they were actually pretty hands off as long as you paid the taxes(which yes, included human sacrifices) so Menoth wasn't be denied his due respect.
So really, from Menoth's point of view, the Orgoth weren't a threat to him or his people. Of course, that was then. In the current climate, he probably would insist on them being brought back to heel. He has had enough toleration of humans who do not give their creator his due. You can still worship other gods, but you must worship Menoth and obey his laws(which are actually pretty simple), under the current and desired Theocracy that Menoth wishes to create over all humans.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 2, 2017 21:44:09 GMT
Even when the worship of the Twins became commonplace, it took a while for them, morrowans specifically, to become the majority, as well as actively try and stamp out Menite communities. Im just wondering did this happen before or after Menoth started randomly imbuing some Menites with superpowers after which they would convert entire villages on his side (Which would join the protectorate and proceed to go kill their previous countrymen). Its a genuine question. Oh I understand that. Goreshade was redeemed instead of killed to make a new model. I'm just curious what level of justification the writers give in universe.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on May 2, 2017 21:53:53 GMT
It happened before the Menites began to receive lots of divine power.
It also bears mentioning that Menites are actually the oppressed party in this case. Morrowans have been conducting religious persecution and genocide of Menites for hundreds of years ever since the Occupation ended in year 0(the Protectorate has only existed since 484 AR, and the current year is 618 IIRC, so less than 200 years), which has led to the Menites(and Menoth) becoming fed up. The Protectorate was formed as sort of a nation-sized Gulag by the Cygnarans as a place they could dump their unwanted Menites. It happened as the resolution to the 1st Cygnaran civil war which was in response to the Cygnaran oppression of the Menite minority becoming too much to bear anymore. And as a result, the Protectorate was formed. The land was selected because at the time the Cygnarans believed there was nothing of value in the arid desert regions, though the Protectorate later found rich metal and gemstone deposits, as well as oil. So the joke is really on Cygnar for giving up valuable land.
At the time when the Twins became gods, after their divinity had been verified, the Menite priesthood had decreed that you could worship other gods as well as Menoth. Menites are actually the more tolerant of bunch oddly enough from a doctrinal point of view.
Thamarism has never really been allowed by either the Menites or the Morrowans, though generally more because Thamarites tend to dabble in forbidden and evil arts. IE: A true hardcore Thamarite will be doing things that are quite illegal, and morally repugnant. Which is enough to where both religions generally will shoot Thamarites on sight.
|
|
|
Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 2, 2017 21:57:35 GMT
Even when the worship of the Twins became commonplace, it took a while for them, morrowans specifically, to become the majority, as well as actively try and stamp out Menite communities. Im just wondering did this happen before or after Menoth started randomly imbuing some Menites with superpowers after which they would convert entire villages on his side (Which would join the protectorate and proceed to go kill their previous countrymen). Its a genuine question. GT has got it right. Also note that before the Protectorate was founded, anybody with Warcaster/arcane talent would just go into their nation's place of arcane training.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 2, 2017 22:06:52 GMT
Alright, that's at least something in their favor. But I'm not a believer in a "Sins/ Innocence of the Father" style justice. Same reason I don't find Cygnar very compelling I suppose.
Anyway I guess it all comes down to the story never being able to move forward or be resolved because Minis I suppose. That really sucks because Sans Cygnar, The Iron Kingdoms I find have such neat and developed factions.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on May 2, 2017 22:20:58 GMT
I very much disagree with the story never moving forward. Godless is a huge change for the PoM in-canon, and from what I've heard I REALLY wanna pick it up...
|
|
|
Post by gargs454 on May 3, 2017 0:37:23 GMT
Anyway I guess it all comes down to the story never being able to move forward or be resolved because Minis I suppose. That really sucks because Sans Cygnar, The Iron Kingdoms I find have such neat and developed factions. I would argue its more "the story never being able to move forward because 'literature'". In other words, it makes for a better story to have the people be the heroes than to have the gods be the heroes. So, even if there never was a Warmahordes, and all we had is the fictional universe of the Iron Kingdoms, the stories would still likely be centered around the people, and thus, the involvement of the gods would be kept to a minimum.
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on May 3, 2017 1:32:33 GMT
mmm I haven't read much of the fluff... but from what you've all said, Menoth's power is in the number of his devout followers. When he had the most followers he did not need help, thus he did not ask of it. When he lost a large fraction of his followers, he weakened as well. Those that inspire the most followers are given power to prove his existence. Those that weaken the other gods are praised (even if that means purging the land of non-followers). Those that do nothing receive nothing. Warmachines are an example of the same power he gives to his followers, and prayers in Menoth's name can strengthen them, yet no other warmachine... Using this basis, he'd be lawful good. He did not wish suffering or conflict until it became a necessity. Now that it is a necessity, only those who participate in the "crusades" are granted true blessings. The thought pattern of Lawful good is doing good for some "greater purpose," regardless of the price. Lawful Evil would be someone who acts for personal gain. If Menoth is truly trying to stop the extinction of the human race, he would be following a "greater purpose."
|
|
thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
|
Post by thelat on May 3, 2017 3:24:17 GMT
Menoth does not directly influence stuff on Caen - he grants power to his priests to do it for him. This isn't exactly true. There's a lot of indications that sufficient faith lets you tap into Menoth's power, whether or not he wants that. The best example of this is when Voyle lost his divine protection, not when he disobeyed the Harbinger and not even when he attacked Vilmon, but when Harbinger martyred to save Vilmon. That broke his faith that he was representing the will of Menoth, and with it, almost all of his power. Seacat has said this a few times in the Menoth forums. I would also like to point out that Seacat has said that Menoth, the Dwarven goes, and the Elven gods model three types of parents. For the Elven gods, it's the parents who want to give their children everything they could possibly want. For the Dwarven gods, it's the parents that make sure that their kids are OK, but also wants them to have to still work for success. They did not beat about the bush on this: Menoth is an absent parent.
|
|
|
Post by charlzheimer on May 3, 2017 8:51:45 GMT
I very much disagree with the story never moving forward. Godless is a huge change for the PoM in-canon, and from what I've heard I REALLY wanna pick it up... oh i have SOOOO many gripes about that book. the introduction of a new foe...the complete ignoral of the last bits of fluff from mk2. (aka i think the assasination attempt on sevy's life by zerkova NEVER HAPPEND) the pace of the writing...the weird focus and unfocusing on details. the book litterally starts with the writer stating this is his first book ever.
|
|