SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Apr 28, 2017 15:46:39 GMT
Yea, one unit of halbs, thane, and free issyen and 2x storm falls seems like a decent core to an army. I also like the spears as a general release. They are as hard to remove as kicky monks and have much more utility. Not bad for 9pts. The rest are just mopey. Not terrible, not good enough to make you change list design except in corner cases. 4shades feat is so depressing... The kicky monks are harder to remove. Their defense is always higher and if you miss them, they move. The Spears can be dealt with at range with sprays, blasts or Stealth ignoring attacks. They are in the ok boat if you ask me. They are 9 points for 3 weaponmasters attacks at pow 11, with a native threat of 11 without Veangeance. I am disapointed. They have a very low volume of attacks for 9 points.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Apr 28, 2017 15:48:37 GMT
I definitely want to play more Ghyr to figure out where his strengths are. His spell list is really solid and the Field Marshal is great so he might be fine even with the feat. Gonna keep fiddling and see what I can come up with. He's going to be above Garryth, Ravyn and Thyron maybe? I am having a very hard time seeing RetShade making any big impact on our caster roster right now.
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on Apr 28, 2017 16:59:17 GMT
I think people are a bit too down on the Ryssovass. They seem underwhelming next to Sentinels but most people are comparing the capabilities of a 16pt unit with a 22 point unit and are somehow shocked when the 22 pt unit comes out on top.
Comparing base Sentinels to Ryssovass would be a more sane comparison but I'm not sure it's relevant because of how much stronger the unit is with its CA. I don't think you can definitively say that isn't a place for a 16pt 10-person unit of weapon-masters that are particularly good a killing warjacks.
I'd be really interested to see what a CA grants to the Ryssovass (I know they aren't even out yet and I'm already wish-listing) to differentiate them a bit more.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 28, 2017 17:18:15 GMT
I think people are underestimating Defensive Line. DEF 14 and Tough keeps them safe from a lot of baseline infantry. They need a little help getting to melee but once they're in they're one of our better jammers I think. Aelyr is also pretty solid on his own and the Hard buff to the Ryss is situationally brilliant.
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Post by CaptCommy on Apr 28, 2017 17:37:16 GMT
I think people are underestimating Defensive Line. DEF 14 and Tough keeps them safe from a lot of baseline infantry. They need a little help getting to melee but once they're in they're one of our better jammers I think. Aelyr is also pretty solid on his own and the Hard buff to the Ryss is situationally brilliant. There's a big difference between actual DEF 14 and defensive line though. Since they're only DEF 14 in melee, they're going to have serious problems not getting shot to death crossing the table. I still think they're decent and have a good role for their point cost, but it is important to recognize the issues with def line.
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Post by mikethefish on Apr 28, 2017 18:05:56 GMT
sry but rfp on infiltrators isnt going to make them any better Incorrect
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 28, 2017 21:02:39 GMT
Mass RFP can be a pretty powerful tool as it swings some matches completely in your favor. It's kind of like anti-magic abilities - it doesn't come up all that often, but when it does come up it's on and popping.
You get RFP on all infantry models, too, so it opens up the possibility of Narn or an Assassin RFPing a warbeast or other large piece, which can sometimes be important. Even your warcaster can RFP, though I think that only really helps Elara2 and Garryth as most of the warcasters you'll run with this theme do not seek out melee.
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Post by Kallas on Apr 29, 2017 7:58:26 GMT
sry but rfp on infiltrators isnt going to make them any better Incorrect It's not. If they weren't good in that situation already (ie, most situations) then it's not going to make them better. Anti Tough is nice and RFP is ball busting against the strong recursion casters but it doesn't actually help them do their job better.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Apr 29, 2017 10:19:33 GMT
I think there are some strong lists (or list gaining in popularity locally) like Ghost Fleet, Makeda with Ferox, or Morvahna2, which do not want to play into Shadows of the Retribution. If nothing else, it should force list selection in certain matchups. If you play team tournaments (like the WTC) I would want the list on my team.
As for Infiltrators specifically, I have not regretted taking them in Mk3 (even though I have mostly played Forges of War recently). With Gang, they damage even heavy targets on the charge - and jam well even when the enemy doesn't have a ton of units to skirmish with.
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Post by mikethefish on Apr 29, 2017 10:23:37 GMT
It's not. If they weren't good in that situation already (ie, most situations) then it's not going to make them better. Anti Tough is nice and RFP is ball busting against the strong recursion casters but it doesn't actually help them do their job better. First of all, they gained an ability that they didn't have before, without an associated increase in points. Which means that they got factualy better. Which means that I am technically correct - which as we all know is the best kind of correct But in all seriousness, for a max unit that costs a mere 13 points, you get AD, Spd 7 and Stealth, plus two attacks with Gang. That is awesome by any reasonable measurement, especially now that infantry and gunlines are coming back in such a big way. I get that this is Ret, and that there is an abundance of riches when it comes to having awesome infantry units, but folks really need to open their eyes. This unit has a ton of value for a bargain price.
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Post by Kallas on Apr 29, 2017 11:14:52 GMT
First of all, they gained an ability that they didn't have before, without an associated increase in points. Which means that they got factualy better. Which means that I am technically correct - which as we all know is the best kind of correct Yes, technically correct But it's also correct that all other warrior models get the benefit. Such that if the ability is relevant then it's still useful when you don't bring Infiltrators. But in all seriousness, for a max unit that costs a mere 13 points, you get AD, Spd 7 and Stealth, plus two attacks with Gang. That is awesome by any reasonable measurement, especially now that infantry and gunlines are coming back in such a big way. I get that this is Ret, and that there is an abundance of riches when it comes to having awesome infantry units, but folks really need to open their eyes. This unit has a ton of value for a bargain price. Infiltrators don't have AD base (for some stupid reason.) The thing is is that while they're cheap and reasonably fast, they're not all that great at...well, anything. They can kinda kill infantry but Ellowuyr Swordsmen do that way better (especially now with the CA) with way better utility (far, far greater board presence thanks to RNG 2 and no Gang; Parry for digging into enemy lines; Cleave, MAT 7, PS12 > MAT 6 PS9 RNG 0.5 Gang; plus the CA's mini feat is pretty boss; Blade Shield for DEF 15 Vs Ranged and ARM 13 makes them generally just a bit tougher than Infiltrators the majority of the time.) What do Infiltrators do? The answer is nothing. They're cheap but crap. Pathfinder is nice, as is Stealth, as is the Speed, but their package is just weak. At best they can go after light Heavy Beasts (Warpwolves, Angelii) with their MAT 8/PS11, but even then they're not amazing (and our comparable units are roughly as good but better elsewhere.) In Shadows, just take MHSF, because they have guns and can still melee decently enough to make use of faux-Take Down. Thing is, all they are is cheap, and Halberdiers do cheap better. So if you want cheap crap in Shadows, great, but you're probably better off with slightly more expensive stuff that can actually do shit.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 29, 2017 13:45:15 GMT
Not to get too far off topic here, but I've found Infiltrators to be pretty good in the right circumstance. I wish they had their old Mage Killer rule, or something else to make them distinct, but they're still decent. I especially like them with Elara2 in combination with Strike Force to give me a massive AD presence that can threaten far up the board and can be buffed by Elara2's spells and feat (Ghostly and Reposition are a nice combo). They also do well with Vyros1 to clear off any enemy jammers and provide cheap feat enablers.
The big thing that they do is set the tempo for the game. They AD, get up in the enemy's face, and annihilate the enemy's screening troops - two highly accurate attacks apiece mean they do that better than any other unit in the game, and the quasi-Takedown from the theme makes them even better at that. Our other troops - Halberdiers especially - can be fast, but nothing gets up the board faster that Infiltrators. Maybe you don't need that in your army, but if you do Infiltrators can definitely perform a valuable service.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Apr 30, 2017 17:19:15 GMT
I feel like all of our new releases are really solid nothing is overwhelmingly going to shift how Ret plays but as a whole it adds a lot of new options. One of the biggest mistakes I think people are doing though is comparing the Ryssovass to Sentinels. Its a 6pt swing and that's a big deal.
The CA on the HES have finally given them a place in the Retribution arsenal and that gives me hope that eventually the Infiltrators will receive the same treatment and have more use outside of corner cases.
Spears makes a good caster defense tool especially with 4shade as revive can keep them working turn after turn.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 30, 2017 21:43:56 GMT
As a cryx player....Im glad we got the good goreshades. 😛 I hate your new mass RFP. Looks like i need to get to work on a dedicated ret list to pair.
As a ret player....The fane knight is kind of cool. The Ellowuyr CA is welcome too. Def12 nyss is wierd. Should be 14 base. The themes seem to be PP pointing everyone towards a combined arms/infantry heavier lists. which for me personally is welcome.
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Post by Demeritus on Apr 30, 2017 21:59:36 GMT
As a cryx player....Im glad we got the good goreshades. 😛 I hate your new mass RFP. Looks like i need to get to work on a dedicated ret list to pair. I actually think he is a pretty good caster, not amazing and certainly not the new coming of Haley but he works and has some neat tools.
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