snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Sept 25, 2020 9:55:44 GMT
Lights need to fulfill a specific role for them to be really interesting in our minds. Powerhouse does not work as heavies exist that take buffs better and cost the same fury/focus. There ar sneaky high def long leech lights, support lights, gun lights or some are just taken for the Animus. That's what you really see.
The tanky, trade for, contest zones part just feels bad. But actually they DO have the defensive edge over things like Archons for roughly the same points. And it's sometimes better to send a light that takes non trivial recourses to remove, to take the bait, instead of you heavy that goes, does not accomplish anything and then dies anyways.
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 25, 2020 19:34:19 GMT
This is more a lore question and it's not good to base rules on lore, but are jacks supposed to be as smart as warbeasts/animals? If not, they might be able to give "jack marshall-esque" abilities to beasts within control/command range to represent the increased autonomy.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 26, 2020 0:02:51 GMT
It REALLY depends on the Warbeast. Cyclops have their own culture (including Shamans), but take commands and have power like a beast. Full Blood Trolls speak and have rudimentary intelligence. On the other hand you have actual beasts like the Argus, which may be smart for a dog, but I don't think matches the intelligence of a FBT, much less a Cyclops.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Sept 28, 2020 5:58:23 GMT
My solutions for melee lights: 1. FA on light warbeasts to limit the maximization of 1 or 2 particular lights with stats/abilities that make spamming greater than 3 of one kind a huge advantage. When there is one stand out good light, it gets spammed, and it eclipses most other lights, except in corner-case situations. CID is showing that about the proposal on Pyre Trolls.
2. Provide animi or abilities that directly aid more than "self", i.e. aid warriors and/or other warbeasts. Pyre again provides for warriors or warbeasts. Bouncer is another fair example. CoC light warjack that shoots Beacon is another aid example.
3. Increase threat movement + melee range in inverse proportion to maximum damage profile. In all factions it can be determined how far and what total potential damage a particular light or lesser can threaten. Lights should be able to threaten further upfield, but with significantly less power than (slower) heavies. .
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 28, 2020 15:04:09 GMT
My solutions for melee lights: 1. FA on light warbeasts to limit the maximization of 1 or 2 particular lights with stats/abilities that make spamming greater than 3 of one kind a huge advantage. When there is one stand out good light, it gets spammed, and it eclipses most other lights, except in corner-case situations. CID is showing that about the proposal on Pyre Trolls. 2. Provide animi or abilities that directly aid more than "self", i.e. aid warriors and/or other warbeasts. Pyre again provides for warriors or warbeasts. Bouncer is another fair example. CoC light warjack that shoots Beacon is another aid example. 3. Increase threat movement + melee range in inverse proportion to maximum damage profile. In all factions it can be determined how far and what total potential damage a particular light or lesser can threaten. Lights should be able to threaten further upfield, but with significantly less power than (slower) heavies. . Agree with all points, especially the first. You can see this across the board, in all factions, like how the Scarsfell Griffon completely overshadows the Rotterhorn and Razorwing. As it stands in the CID the Slag Troll's damage output is worryingly close to a Mauler's (when both are buffed), but at least that's made up by how abysmal its threat range is. I agree, the point of a light should (at least as a general rule) be to be a smaller, faster version of a heavy and outthreat them, not just be a discount heavy.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 28, 2020 17:38:59 GMT
My solutions for melee lights: 1. FA on light warbeasts to limit the maximization of 1 or 2 particular lights with stats/abilities that make spamming greater than 3 of one kind a huge advantage. When there is one stand out good light, it gets spammed, and it eclipses most other lights, except in corner-case situations. CID is showing that about the proposal on Pyre Trolls. As a general case, this will do absolutely nothing for the beatstick-focused Lights. If you are limited in utility Lights, one is often looking to add Heavies in to the mix as they tend to be more efficient beatsticks. Yes there are specifics, but they would be on a case by case basis.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Sept 29, 2020 6:21:44 GMT
My solutions for melee lights: 1. FA on light warbeasts to limit the maximization of 1 or 2 particular lights with stats/abilities that make spamming greater than 3 of one kind a huge advantage. When there is one stand out good light, it gets spammed, and it eclipses most other lights, except in corner-case situations. CID is showing that about the proposal on Pyre Trolls. As a general case, this will do absolutely nothing for the beatstick-focused Lights. If you are limited in utility Lights, one is often looking to add Heavies in to the mix as they tend to be more efficient beatsticks. Yes there are specifics, but they would be on a case by case basis. In the specific case of 'beatstick-focused lights', a point #1. change alone would be insufficient. Point #3. would also be needed. However, if point #1. is ignored, a specific high output light that COULD be spammed, would be. With probable detriment to usage of slightly less tuned-up melee lights and also, more importantly, heavy warbeasts. Note this is already happening in theory (CID lists) with the change of the (utility) Pyre and consequential decline in the Mauler.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 29, 2020 14:45:04 GMT
As a general case, this will do absolutely nothing for the beatstick-focused Lights. If you are limited in utility Lights, one is often looking to add Heavies in to the mix as they tend to be more efficient beatsticks. Yes there are specifics, but they would be on a case by case basis. In the specific case of 'beatstick-focused lights', a point #1. change alone would be insufficient. Point #3. would also be needed. However, if point #1. is ignored, a specific high output light that COULD be spammed, would be. With probable detriment to usage of slightly less tuned-up melee lights and also, more importantly, heavy warbeasts. Note this is already happening in theory (CID lists) with the change of the (utility) Pyre and consequential decline in the Mauler. By specific case, I'm not talking about the category, but the difference between a Cyclops Savage, Troll Axer, and Nephilim Soldier, not all 3 looked at together. What each is competing with for Battlegroup slots is going to be different.
Reducing the FA on Basilisk Kreas won't necessarily convince me I need to put a Cyclops Savage in their spot. Most armies would only consider taking 2 Kreas if they have a Lesser Warlock to spread them out with as it is. As it is, that spot would probably be taken up by the cheap Archidon instead of a Savage due to its Long Leash, slightly better Defense, slightly better health pool and other advantages. Trollbloods "cheap" Heavy (pre-CID) is the Earthborn, so Trollbloods wouldn't consider a Heavy to take a Light's spot in most cases.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 29, 2020 15:09:36 GMT
In the specific case of 'beatstick-focused lights', a point #1. change alone would be insufficient. Point #3. would also be needed. However, if point #1. is ignored, a specific high output light that COULD be spammed, would be. With probable detriment to usage of slightly less tuned-up melee lights and also, more importantly, heavy warbeasts. Note this is already happening in theory (CID lists) with the change of the (utility) Pyre and consequential decline in the Mauler. By specific case, I'm not talking about the category, but the difference between a Cyclops Savage, Troll Axer, and Nephilim Soldier, not all 3 looked at together. What each is competing with for Battlegroup slots is going to be different.
Reducing the FA on Basilisk Kreas won't necessarily convince me I need to put a Cyclops Savage in their spot. Most armies would only consider taking 2 Kreas if they have a Lesser Warlock to spread them out with as it is. As it is, that spot would probably be taken up by the cheap Archidon instead of a Savage due to its Long Leash, slightly better Defense, slightly better health pool and other advantages. Trollbloods "cheap" Heavy (pre-CID) is the Earthborn, so Trollbloods wouldn't consider a Heavy to take a Light's spot in most cases.
That's one of the things I really like about the Brawlmachine format - it forces you to use a little bit of everything. Sure the Savage isn't actually competitive, but when you've already taken the Brute and Archidon, and still want a light beast with an 11' threat range, suddenly the Savage becomes a lot more appealing.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 29, 2020 18:44:15 GMT
Brawlmachine's standards won't necessarily inform the standards for larger formats, nor should it. Even as you're saying it, the Savage is still listed as a lesser choice not am option based on what your Warlock is bringing. You're taking the Savage because you already have an Archidon, but wouldn't be affording a Titan.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 29, 2020 22:03:33 GMT
Brawlmachine's standards won't necessarily inform the standards for larger formats, nor should it. Even as you're saying it, the Savage is still listed as a lesser choice not am option based on what your Warlock is bringing. You're taking the Savage because you already have an Archidon, but wouldn't be affording a Titan. Makeda3's a bit of an outlier - I'm not sure I would take a titan, even if I could. Her greatest strength is, well, boosting strength to an absurd level, but she doesn't improve her beasts' threat ranges at all. Against anything but the absolutely most heavily armored targets a Gladiator is probably going to overkill its target by a large margin. Even then, I'd grab double Brutes over double Savages almost every single time. So yea, suboptimal.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 29, 2020 22:17:36 GMT
Mak3da also has the benefit of her twin-sworded Cyclops missile as well. I just used the Titan as an example because it is the common Heavy Beast of the Skorne army and provides the non-specialized beatstick Heavy of the army.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Nov 15, 2020 22:24:10 GMT
light melee has a varied purpose-
assasinate solos- a few peices always seemed to be geared for this role. most are ok.
threaten units- things with thresher or overtake are for this. generally ok
trade up against a heavy or other light- mostly we're talking the ones with just a single initial or two, and none of the previous two mentioned traits. things like this are in the worst shape, usually. perhaps a point or two of mat/pow would help cement their role. that or cheapen them to use as chaff.
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Post by erythro on Mar 7, 2021 22:36:11 GMT
Perhaps make lights fury efficient? Allow them to drop a fury at the end of their activation. This way you could have more lights with less worry over fury management.
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