gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jan 9, 2020 18:59:53 GMT
I’ve had this idea kicking around for a while now.
It seems that war beasts barely got anything compared to jacks in mark 3. The extra fury on death really only will matter if you are possibly losing.
I got to thinking, what if some warbeasts in general had a “pack” mentality.
Each faction could have a select group of war beasts with this advantage. They would give it to other beasts of the same type. The bonus would be minor compared to the [leadership] bonus, but sometimes cumulative. Examples:
Skorne: aradus units. Soldier would give mat, sentinel rat, hydra(also now an Aradus) speed.
Circle: warp wolves: weirdly I think they could give non cumulative keywords. Feral: extra warp per turn stalker: prowl
Legion: nephilim (psychic connection): I was toying with the idea that they can all transfer damage to one another
Trolls: dire trolls? This is actually the one I have the hardest time picturing.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 9, 2020 19:30:30 GMT
You say this as if Warbeasts and Warjacks were on par in Mk 2. I don't think they were on par. Power Up was given to help the Warcasters and Warjacks catch up to the Warbeasts general utility. Fury is generally superior for Warbeasts for two reason: first is that you aren't screwed on them from a decision made in the earliest part of your turn (Frenzy is usually a condition from your previous turn's decisions), and most of the Heavies can usually go up to 4 instead of every Warjack's limit of 3.
If a "pack" of Warbeasts need improvement, they should be addressed as a group. If all Warbeasts need improvement, it should be addressed in their general rules.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jan 9, 2020 21:20:21 GMT
Hmm... I always thought the issue was infantry being better, generally .
And I’m not sure what I’m suggesting is even a huge buff... it more of a “pseudo theme force for beasts”, where if you take 3 warpwolves they all give each other bonuses
In magic the gathering, tribal decks are based around one particular type of creature
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jan 9, 2020 23:19:36 GMT
The issue is that warjacks were pretty bad throughout all of Mk.II for reasons Charistoph has articulated - the Fury mechanic was basically straight-up superior to focus. Warjacks need focus to be effective, so for every warjack you take, that is less focus that your caster can use for spells and camping. Once you start taking more than one or two warjacks, you quickly run into the situation where you don't have enough focus to go around.
As a result, Warmachine factions tended to rely heavily on infantry because it was very difficult to run a warjack-heavy list. Using infantry doesn't deplete your caster's main resource (Focus) like using a warjack does, so most of the time it would be a bad idea to take more warjacks than the bare minimum that you are forced to take to fill your WJP.
That is why Power Up was necessary - because Warmachine Mk.II had this issue of being a game called Warmachine that leads off with cool smashy robots, but then players quickly find out that cool smashy robots suck so the game is actually Iron Kingdoms Infantry Battles. Unless you are playing against a Hordes faction, in which case you look at their beasts and get jealous because why can't my robits do that?
Also, you do already have that sort of thing in the form of animi -- there are some warbeasts that can support each other with animi like Rage, Primal, etc.
And the nephilim suggestion... I have a feeling that playing against a list full of warbeasts that can all transfer damage to one another would be a terrible experience. Against an all-nephilim list, you would have to dish out something like 200 damage before you actually kill a single beast, plus the fury mechanic allows them to pretty trivially repair lost aspects. Playing against that would be like bashing your head against a wall.
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Post by Azahul on Jan 9, 2020 23:33:37 GMT
Aw, here I thought this was going to be a discussion on the lore surrounding those Warbeasts that seem to have societies of their own, such as the Cyclops, full-blood Trolls, Warpwolves, etc. I've always been kind of interested in that aspect of the game. I'd really like to see a Warpwolf character Warbeast that begins the game in its human form, for example, just because of the interesting questions it raises. Here's a human, with a Fury stat, who can be Forced and transferred to and generally treated like a beast, but they're also visually a human (perhaps up to a point, then they become a large base ravening Wolf Monster). It's an interesting relationship to explore, having a sentient being tied to your will who can be compelled to do whatever you want, especially in the Circle and Trolls where such creatures aren't necessarily regarded as slaves the way the Cyclops are to Skorne. Trolls lore has touched on it before, seeing as most stories from the perspective of the Warlocks make it clear that they tend to view their Warbeasts as companions and/or children to some extent rather than servants. On the Circle side, the closest exploration of the subject matter that I can recall is some old league fluff where, ironically, it was a Pureblood Warpwolf (i.e. one who can't assume a human form at all) who was the sentient Warbeast companion.
I remember wishing Unleashed had provided a little more information on the subject of Warpwolves as companions in their human forms, or even making the sentient Warbeasts playable characters in their own right. Might need to try running a campaign at some point exploring the idea a little more.
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Post by michael on Jan 10, 2020 0:01:16 GMT
I think your premise is flawed. Warbeasts did not get worse in the change to MK III. Warjacks were brought up to something approaching parity with warbeasts, rather than warbeasts being strictly superior in every respect at all times.
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juckto
Junior Strategist
Posts: 124
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Post by juckto on Jan 10, 2020 3:14:45 GMT
a game called Warmachine that leads off with cool smashy robots, but then players quickly find out that cool smashy robots suck so the game is actually Iron Kingdoms Infantry Battles. Unless you are playing against a Hordes faction, in which case you look at their beasts and ... ...and you think why is their group of 8-12 models called a "Horde"?
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jan 10, 2020 4:26:08 GMT
Yeah, transfers would be rough if it was more than once/ turn, and costing fury.
I do want to somewhat explore the whole “society of beasts theme” , which is why I mentioned aradus for skorne possibly having a “hive mind” where each beast supports the other. Perhaps the best we will ever get is leadership [keyworded beast], though. I just wish it showed up more, I think it could sort of represent that type of thing
I myself have already talked about how limited minions are compared to mercenaries, and I think there’s a lot of room for more minor background things, like cyclops societies, etc.
I hope some day (maybe after the whole oblivion thing is over and the story stays stable for a while) we can get a “immoren world Guide” where we see a “wide angle lens” that gives us more background on other continents, minor factions, etc.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jan 10, 2020 5:57:39 GMT
The fluff talked about the Nephilim leading and inspiring the blighted Nyss. They don't do that on the table, though.
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Post by greytemplar on Jan 10, 2020 7:03:46 GMT
There has been some wish listing for a while for some Warbeast casters. IE: A warlock who is also a warbeast. They wouldn't be able to be forced for obvious reasons, but they might have an Animus and be a Warbeast model. So it would be affected by warbeast keyword interactions and have a damage spiral.
That said, there are a few of these that wouldn't quite make sense to have.
Full-blooded trolls are not magically gifted. The ability to use warlock magic is one of the defining features of Trollkin that separates them from Full-blood trolls. A full-blood troll that could use warlock magic would break the rules of the setting. Its one of the reasons why the Trollkin and full-blood trolls have such a symbiotic relationship. It might have something to do with intelligence, as magically gifted individuals are generally very intelligent individuals. The best full-blood trolls can manage is to craft crude tools in terms of intelligence, and most can't even accomplish that.
Warpwolves are even less likely to be able to do this. Warpwolves are artificial creations. They don't occur naturally. Every Warpwolf has been created by the Druids for a specific purpose as a tool. They're not typical werewolves. A druid has to specifically administer the Warpwolf elixir to someone, willing or unwilling. After this is done and the mess from the first transformation is cleaned up, the warpwolf is enslaved to serve its new masters. Maybe occasionally a Warpwolf might escape this control, but the chance of it maintaining control of its mental faculties is small. And smaller still is it finding other escaped warpwolves to form any type of society. Pureblood warpwolves are the ones who could still be considered anything more than beasts. But the typical warpwolf is no longer a person, they're a monster. Not a person who might be able to form a society with others of its kind.
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Post by Azahul on Jan 10, 2020 7:17:03 GMT
Not in Beast form, no, but I'm pretty sure a Warpwolf is still human for 90% of their time (Purebloods excepted). There are at least a few RPG one-shots and plot hooks based on that premise. I doubt one could ever be a Warlock (and Kromac already fills the shapeshifting Warlock design space), but I think it'd be interesting to see a Warbeast that looks like a regular human infantry model initially and transforms later in the fight.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jan 10, 2020 8:46:00 GMT
Not in Beast form, no, but I'm pretty sure a Warpwolf is still human for 90% of their time (Purebloods excepted). There are at least a few RPG one-shots and plot hooks based on that premise. I doubt one could ever be a Warlock (and Kromac already fills the shapeshifting Warlock design space), but I think it'd be interesting to see a Warbeast that looks like a regular human infantry model initially and transforms later in the fight. Basically Alyce Marc. A reverse dragoon, really. I've also thought about 'mercenary' warbeasts for a while now, but I don't know how that would work lore wise. Skorne can enslave, everblight corrupt, and circle can sorta enslave (its made a point that all of their beasts have been tamed over centuries), but what would trolls do? Something like the Thornwood Mauler would be a great merc beast.
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Post by Azahul on Jan 10, 2020 11:09:43 GMT
We kinda have that in the way Arkadius can take Gorax and Mire can take Swamp Trolls.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jan 10, 2020 12:12:54 GMT
Does everyone clamoring for a Warbeast Warlock forget that Bethayne and Belphagor are a thing?
Bethayne is PP's attempt at a warlock that's also a Warbeast. It's pretty clear in her rules, which are much like Karchev's own rules. I'm not saying she's good (I don't know, I don't play legion) but she definitely exists.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jan 10, 2020 12:48:22 GMT
Does everyone clamoring for a Warbeast Warlock forget that Bethayne and Belphagor are a thing? Bethayne is PP's attempt at a warlock that's also a Warbeast. It's pretty clear in her rules, which are much like Karchev's own rules. I'm not saying she's good (I don't know, I don't play legion) but she definitely exists. She's more like a Warlock than can wear her Warbeast as a skin. You could have a skorne Cyclops Shaman warlock - Shamans are spellcasters. It's made clear in the fluff that they utterly despise their captors and are always plotting to stab them in the back, so actually justifying it would be tricky. But then again, Maelok exists. However, I don't think the hoksune code allows warriors to be led by a filthy animal, no matter how powerful. A cyclops lesser warlock would be a possible departure from the norm - the only 40mm aside from Horgle1, and the first beast caster.
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