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Feora4
Dec 16, 2019 8:01:37 GMT
Post by charlzheimer on Dec 16, 2019 8:01:37 GMT
paradox , Hashmal , what are your thoughts of Feora3 in Warriors Of The Old Faith running 3 or more clamjacks? the clamjacks will slow her down. if you use them as a screen to protect feora the rest of your pony infantry will run out of the incite range. feora3 needs to be mobile to cover the ground that she can cover with that spell. if you use clamjacks as roadblocks then you'll find that they don't really prevent models from ignoring them to go after feora. my (unwanted) 2 cents.
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Feora4
Dec 16, 2019 13:35:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by paradox on Dec 16, 2019 13:35:09 GMT
Id agree. Without Tactician at minimum, you’re working really hard to get Incite out there without exposing Feora. She works so much better with Tactician, from personal experience playing in HoD.
But without some means of escape, like Shadow from Runewood2, applying Incite often means inciting death. She just can sustain herself within 9” of a front line.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Feora4
Dec 16, 2019 14:01:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hashmal on Dec 16, 2019 14:01:13 GMT
Gonna echo those thoughts. Clamjacks have no business on Feora3. They are slow and so many better options exist.
I'm not sold on the idea of taking clamjacks at all, but if you're going to do so, do it with Reznik2.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 16, 2019 14:38:18 GMT
Definitely needs Ignite back, or some damage buff. Yeah, that's why I've only used her with Judicators or in FM with any success. Anything that provides the damage boost that she lost, but then it's really the theme supporting her rather than her supporting the theme. She can almost be a front line caster with Escort up and it gives her threat ranges that are competitive. I usually have her mid line and she upkeeps Escort and hotswaps Firestarter as needed, with the rest of her focus going to her flamethrower instead of spells. I see a bit more infantry in my meta, so it works out better than a jack/beast meta.
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Feora4
Dec 17, 2019 10:18:30 GMT
Post by charlzheimer on Dec 17, 2019 10:18:30 GMT
that beeing said i'm most hyped to see how this version of feora will look. this "fallen" version of her.
side note: holy Firetruck my english is bad at times. using "are" as "as" geeebus.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Feora4
Dec 17, 2019 14:18:21 GMT
Post by sorokin on Dec 17, 2019 14:18:21 GMT
that beeing said i'm most hyped to see how this version of feora will look. this "fallen" version of her. side note: holy Firetruck my english is bad at times. using "are" as "as" geeebus. You should see my english when I'm tired, it's absolutely atrocious and I study the language. Amazing what sleepyiness combined with simultanious impatience to put my thoughts into writing can do to you.
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Post by charlzheimer on Dec 17, 2019 15:16:31 GMT
that beeing said i'm most hyped to see how this version of feora will look. this "fallen" version of her. side note: holy Firetruck my english is bad at times. using "are" as "as" geeebus. You should see my english when I'm tired, it's absolutely atrocious and I study the language. Amazing what sleepyiness combined with simultanious impatience to put my thoughts into writing can do to you. could be worse...could be Zhoe. no offense.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 17, 2019 15:56:11 GMT
I'll argue Feora3. I have been having a good amount of success with her in FM. I agree she is better in Infernals though. Feora2 is a dumpster fire, which kills me because she was my waifu. There's no secret tech to unlock because she has a paucity of spells and abilities to even use. And her spell list is just unfocused and out of tune with the rest of her stats (two offensive attack spells on a FOC 6 caster? Just...why...). I hope for the day my girl gets her due. Im very curious to see Feora3 lists and results. Outside HoD, Ive found she gets log-jammed in the early game because otherwise youre leaving giant avenues open to her, and she dies after applying Incite, because she cant get away and something is inevitably in threat range. Especially because many things threat alot further than her 9” Incite bubble. Shes a hot mess of irreconcilable OOO issues, focus starvation, and vulnerablity. Now that I'm not solely on my phone, I'll respond to this. So first, the list: Feora3 Faithful Masses -Judicator -Castigator -Hierophant Idrians (min) + CA Choir (min) Initiates x3 (SURPRISE) Menite Archon x2 Hand of Silence Hermit Allegiant Mechanik x2 Wrack List design: No real surprises here. You've played Feora3. Redlined Judicators are awesome with Mechaniks to soak the downside of Redline. Multiple nonlinear assassination threats via Hand of Silence, Feora3 herself, and a 17" spray threat Judicator with a 17" running threat on Fuel for the Flames. Idrians can pinch hit too, but that's pretty unlikely IMO unless they were ignored most of the game. General good stuff that comes with Faithful Masses. And a +10 damage swing possible on the 'jacks. I personally like the Castigator over other options because he's SPD 5 (I like this), Combustion sucks a bit less at a 9" threat and up to POW 18, two Open Fists for some tech, and I get two Mechaniks plus him instead of a Sanctifier (who I would generally prefer). Plus he can get up to POW 26, so that don't suck. Theory: This grew out of my frustration with Clockatrices. I was looking at ways to make them hurt. Originally, this had a Shrine of the Lawgiver instead of the Idrians because I (wrongly) thought that Ghostly let me move through models. The whole idea was to just plant Feora3 on Dreamer and end the game. Since that idea was bunk, I threw that portion out but kept the rest of the frame. Because, funny enough, this list hits hard enough to *no joke* one-shot a Clockatrice (~10% chance when everything aligns from a POW 31 Judicator). This is not a good plan. But it's better than I'd had. Once I got it on the table though, I started warming up to the girl (hehe fire puns). The list aligns with my strengths as a player. You know I have played *a ton* of Kreoss3 double Vengers. I am a fan of fast and brutal lists and have some understanding of how to position them to not get stomped by crackbacks. This list plays similar, albeit slower (a bit). Having a Judicator midfield top of 1 is very intimidating for a lot of people. I think the mistake a lot of people make with Feora3 is burying her to apply Ignite to 3-4 priority targets at the same time. Unless those are a.) Horrors and/or b.) right in your face already, this is probably a bad idea because it's unlikely you'll kill them all and likely you just overextended. I have had the best success applying it to only one or two at a time, and those are typically forward heavy elements that have engaged. Defensive offense is the name of the game, and it's a strength of mine. I'll write an article on her in the future for others explaining how she works. I still need to finish my Faithful Masses theme writeup (I finished everything but the lists ~2 months ago. So busy since then). Playstyle: Very straightforward. First turn advance very aggressively. Get Feora3 behind something that blocks LoS. If you went first, yeet up the field with everything. If you went second, you have picked a side favorable to keeping the girl safe. If your table sucks and you're going second, probably should have played your other list. Feora3 is very terrain dependent and is not someone I would ever consider a main list. Don't play her on boards where you can't reasonably keep her safe. Block melee threats with Initiates. Leverage scenario to force engagement. Keep Feora3 ready and waiting. Keep Redline on the Judicator just so they know the threat. Position Idrians to do chip damage and serve as Hand of Vengeance and Righteous Vengeance triggers. Basically bait hooks and wait to see what comes in. If it's chaff, clear it off with Archons, Judy, and the Castigator. Cast Incite only when it matters. Feat when you're going to have a big turn or win the game. Simple game plan--no real jank, no complexity. But not an easy one. You'll be playing scared most of the game. As long as fear does not impact your positioning, that's good. Being careful with my lady is probably a good thing. Also, bear in mind that Feora3 has a 16" melee assassination threat. It's easy for people to forget this given the focus they place on big Judy and the Archons. And if their 'caster is within 17" of a Judicator (harder to stay out of than the typical 15") and 17" of a Menite Archon, she can come from downtown with a 23" Incite application threat range and an Assault SP 10. Results: This list (not Feora3 herself) is undefeated thus far. That said, I don't have as many games in as I'd want (four). I only debuted this a week or two ago. But it's been surprising me. The list hits *hard*. In my last game, two Menite Archons took out a full health Aradus Sentinel with one attack left over. I rolled high, yes, but the fact that this was possible and didn't even take advantage of all my damage buffs was startling. Unfortunately I haven't played into Grymkin yet (drat). I have had two games into Khador, one into Cygnar, and one into Skorne. Zero games have ended in assassination. Every game has involved Feora3 leveraging Incite cautiously to delete a large threat (Colossal/Gargantuan) or get personally involved to scenario sweep and win. And in every game, the only time Feora3 was ever in any real danger would have been the turn after I won or if I had rolled pitifully low (as in within the 1st percentile) to delete a big target. Also, the Castigator has yet to do anything except run. I'm not taking him out yet, because I still like him. Now here's the funny thing: almost everything you said is true. The only part I disagreed with is the fact that her issues are irreconcilable. -She has Order of Operation issues. Big time! However, I have found that across most turns, my opponents dictated what I needed to do, simplifying my decision tree. OOO isn't as big a deal when you don't want to do half of what you can do to begin with. Then, if there's a conflict, it's a trade-off. -Focus starvation. Also big time. She needs Resourceful or something. But she doesn't have that, so I take a Hierophant, Wrack, and Hand of Silence and am *still* focus starved. -Vulnerability. She's tankier than most of our 'casters and leans hard on Initiates being solid bodies. Menite Archons and Hand having Ashen Veil also help. -Better in Infernals. Absolutely, 100%. But I think she goes from a solid B to an A/A+ in Infernals. I'm not saying she's great. She is definitely not a 'caster that I'd consider as my main list in a tournament pair. I think she has her matchups and performs well enough to scoop wins in them. I'm interested to test her boundaries now. But I am certain she is far better than Feora2, who functionally upkeeps Escort and throws out some Fire haphazardly. Then puts herself at risk to Feat and... apply that Fire to where you wanted it in the first place.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Feora4
Dec 17, 2019 19:58:34 GMT
Post by sorokin on Dec 17, 2019 19:58:34 GMT
You should see my english when I'm tired, it's absolutely atrocious and I study the language. Amazing what sleepyiness combined with simultanious impatience to put my thoughts into writing can do to you. could be worse...could be Zhoe. no offense. Well, he does it on purpose. Alos shoe is not capitalised he'd have you know if he was on the protectorate forums.
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Feora4
Dec 18, 2019 1:44:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by paradox on Dec 18, 2019 1:44:45 GMT
Im very curious to see Feora3 lists and results. Outside HoD, Ive found she gets log-jammed in the early game because otherwise youre leaving giant avenues open to her, and she dies after applying Incite, because she cant get away and something is inevitably in threat range. Especially because many things threat alot further than her 9” Incite bubble. Shes a hot mess of irreconcilable OOO issues, focus starvation, and vulnerablity. Now that I'm not solely on my phone, I'll respond to this. So first, the list: Feora3 Faithful Masses -Judicator -Castigator -Hierophant Idrians (min) + CA Choir (min) Initiates x3 (SURPRISE) Menite Archon x2 Hand of Silence Hermit Allegiant Mechanik x2 Wrack List design: No real surprises here. You've played Feora3. Redlined Judicators are awesome with Mechaniks to soak the downside of Redline. Multiple nonlinear assassination threats via Hand of Silence, Feora3 herself, and a 17" spray threat Judicator with a 17" running threat on Fuel for the Flames. Idrians can pinch hit too, but that's pretty unlikely IMO unless they were ignored most of the game. General good stuff that comes with Faithful Masses. And a +10 damage swing possible on the 'jacks. I personally like the Castigator over other options because he's SPD 5 (I like this), Combustion sucks a bit less at a 9" threat and up to POW 18, two Open Fists for some tech, and I get two Mechaniks plus him instead of a Sanctifier (who I would generally prefer). Plus he can get up to POW 26, so that don't suck. Theory: This grew out of my frustration with Clockatrices. I was looking at ways to make them hurt. Originally, this had a Shrine of the Lawgiver instead of the Idrians because I (wrongly) thought that Ghostly let me move through models. The whole idea was to just plant Feora3 on Dreamer and end the game. Since that idea was bunk, I threw that portion out but kept the rest of the frame. Because, funny enough, this list hits hard enough to *no joke* one-shot a Clockatrice (~10% chance when everything aligns from a POW 31 Judicator). This is not a good plan. But it's better than I'd had. Once I got it on the table though, I started warming up to the girl (hehe fire puns). The list aligns with my strengths as a player. You know I have played *a ton* of Kreoss3 double Vengers. I am a fan of fast and brutal lists and have some understanding of how to position them to not get stomped by crackbacks. This list plays similar, albeit slower (a bit). Having a Judicator midfield top of 1 is very intimidating for a lot of people. I think the mistake a lot of people make with Feora3 is burying her to apply Ignite to 3-4 priority targets at the same time. Unless those are a.) Horrors and/or b.) right in your face already, this is probably a bad idea because it's unlikely you'll kill them all and likely you just overextended. I have had the best success applying it to only one or two at a time, and those are typically forward heavy elements that have engaged. Defensive offense is the name of the game, and it's a strength of mine. I'll write an article on her in the future for others explaining how she works. I still need to finish my Faithful Masses theme writeup (I finished everything but the lists ~2 months ago. So busy since then). Playstyle: Very straightforward. First turn advance very aggressively. Get Feora3 behind something that blocks LoS. If you went first, yeet up the field with everything. If you went second, you have picked a side favorable to keeping the girl safe. If your table sucks and you're going second, probably should have played your other list. Feora3 is very terrain dependent and is not someone I would ever consider a main list. Don't play her on boards where you can't reasonably keep her safe. Block melee threats with Initiates. Leverage scenario to force engagement. Keep Feora3 ready and waiting. Keep Redline on the Judicator just so they know the threat. Position Idrians to do chip damage and serve as Hand of Vengeance and Righteous Vengeance triggers. Basically bait hooks and wait to see what comes in. If it's chaff, clear it off with Archons, Judy, and the Castigator. Cast Incite only when it matters. Feat when you're going to have a big turn or win the game. Simple game plan--no real jank, no complexity. But not an easy one. You'll be playing scared most of the game. As long as fear does not impact your positioning, that's good. Being careful with my lady is probably a good thing. Also, bear in mind that Feora3 has a 16" melee assassination threat. It's easy for people to forget this given the focus they place on big Judy and the Archons. And if their 'caster is within 17" of a Judicator (harder to stay out of than the typical 15") and 17" of a Menite Archon, she can come from downtown with a 23" Incite application threat range and an Assault SP 10. Results: This list (not Feora3 herself) is undefeated thus far. That said, I don't have as many games in as I'd want (four). I only debuted this a week or two ago. But it's been surprising me. The list hits *hard*. In my last game, two Menite Archons took out a full health Aradus Sentinel with one attack left over. I rolled high, yes, but the fact that this was possible and didn't even take advantage of all my damage buffs was startling. Unfortunately I haven't played into Grymkin yet (drat). I have had two games into Khador, one into Cygnar, and one into Skorne. Zero games have ended in assassination. Every game has involved Feora3 leveraging Incite cautiously to delete a large threat (Colossal/Gargantuan) or get personally involved to scenario sweep and win. And in every game, the only time Feora3 was ever in any real danger would have been the turn after I won or if I had rolled pitifully low (as in within the 1st percentile) to delete a big target. Also, the Castigator has yet to do anything except run. I'm not taking him out yet, because I still like him. Now here's the funny thing: almost everything you said is true. The only part I disagreed with is the fact that her issues are irreconcilable. -She has Order of Operation issues. Big time! However, I have found that across most turns, my opponents dictated what I needed to do, simplifying my decision tree. OOO isn't as big a deal when you don't want to do half of what you can do to begin with. Then, if there's a conflict, it's a trade-off. -Focus starvation. Also big time. She needs Resourceful or something. But she doesn't have that, so I take a Hierophant, Wrack, and Hand of Silence and am *still* focus starved. -Vulnerability. She's tankier than most of our 'casters and leans hard on Initiates being solid bodies. Menite Archons and Hand having Ashen Veil also help. -Better in Infernals. Absolutely, 100%. But I think she goes from a solid B to an A/A+ in Infernals. I'm not saying she's great. She is definitely not a 'caster that I'd consider as my main list in a tournament pair. I think she has her matchups and performs well enough to scoop wins in them. I'm interested to test her boundaries now. But I am certain she is far better than Feora2, who functionally upkeeps Escort and throws out some Fire haphazardly. Then puts herself at risk to Feat and... apply that Fire to where you wanted it in the first place. Its something to think about. Youre giving me a reason to think about triple initiates, which is saying alot. Im going to meditate on this.
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Feora4
Dec 18, 2019 1:54:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by paradox on Dec 18, 2019 1:54:26 GMT
My quick bastardization (I own no Hermit, and Im missing a 2nd archon or any initiates lol) I also dont feel right on min idrians. .
Theme: The Faithful Masses 75 / 75 Army
Feora, the Conquering Flame - WJ: +27 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Judicator - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27) - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18
Menite Archon - PC: 8 Menite Archon - PC: 8 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3
Initiates of the Wall - Leader & Grunts: 0 Initiates of the Wall - Leader & Grunts: 0 Initiates of the Wall - Leader & Grunts: 0 Idrian Skirmishers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide - Chieftain & Guide: 5 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 18, 2019 22:03:41 GMT
I'm personally not sold on HoJ with her because of how expensive he is relative to his output. I am likewise a huge fan of Hand of Silence because of his dual role as a beater and a Focus battery.
I'm not crazy about min Idrians either. They die super fast. One idea I had was to straight swap them for two Champions. With this level of damage fixing, they turn into tiny cruise missiles. It does make HoV/RV harder to trigger though.
I am likely to switch off the Hermit. As fun as hitting like a serial killer is, I think a +10 damage swing is excessive. Contemplating dropping him to Anastasia and turning a Mechanik into a Vassal with the extra points. It's probably a better look, as Feora3 is a very big fan of going first.
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Feora4
Dec 18, 2019 22:53:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by paradox on Dec 18, 2019 22:53:19 GMT
I'm personally not sold on HoJ with her because of how expensive he is relative to his output. I am likewise a huge fan of Hand of Silence because of his dual role as a beater and a Focus battery. I'm not crazy about min Idrians either. They die super fast. One idea I had was to straight swap them for two Champions. With this level of damage fixing, they turn into tiny cruise missiles. It does make HoV/RV harder to trigger though. I am likely to switch off the Hermit. As fun as hitting like a serial killer is, I think a +10 damage swing is excessive. Contemplating dropping him to Anastasia and turning a Mechanik into a Vassal with the extra points. It's probably a better look, as Feora3 is a very big fan of going first. HoJ is SPD5 2” reach with a conditional free charge, on MAT7 PS18. Its pretty good. And its spray is potent and efficient. I feel its a reasonable cost. Sure, its cost might be a bit dated, but its not bad. I could see it at 17pts. But you dont NEED Redline on it to do work, which lets you avoid OOO or hotswapping issues.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Feora4
Dec 19, 2019 2:16:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hashmal on Dec 19, 2019 2:16:44 GMT
No issue with rules or abilities. Just really expensive for what he brings to the table imo. I find he has a problem where the spray puts him at threat and he doesn't have the volume of melee attacks to trade well.
But as is a theme in this thread, everything you said is right and he does help with the OOO issue.
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Feora4
Dec 19, 2019 2:37:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by paradox on Dec 19, 2019 2:37:18 GMT
No issue with rules or abilities. Just really expensive for what he brings to the table imo. I find he has a problem where the spray puts him at threat and he doesn't have the volume of melee attacks to trade well. But as is a theme in this thread, everything you said is right and he does help with the OOO issue. Im not sure what more volume you need? Free charge and 3 buys at 2” reach is really pretty good. Ok, sure, no off-hand weapon. Which would only be 1” anyway, and cost the spray. RE the spray, it is only a single shot. But its usually working in conjunction with something else. Otger guns, or in my last build, an archon.
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